Expert: Brenton Hepburn - 8/17/2006

Question
I would encourage you my friend to Google or Yahoo the name Heinz Schmitz and Jehovahs Witness United.An investigation by the Watchtower Observer revealed that Heinz was never really a witness,but what he was doing was pretending that he was so he could win Witnesses to his point of view.I had a few discussions with him in 2001 I think,and the stuff he was doing was not in line with your Society.I wrote them concerning this.And the Watchtower Observer is the one who uncovered it.Mr Schmitz was misrepresenting himself to me.Your answers to my questions were not satisfying to me..But that is life I guess..LOL.I want to reassure you Brenton,that I DO NOT READ literature written by former Jehovahs Witnesses.I have dealt with them on a few occasions,and they are hate filled as it gets.I read the Bible alone,and love Jesus very much.If you need any more information on this Jehovahs Witness United ring..Let me know-Dallas
-------------------------

Followup To

Question -
Thanks for your responses.You have been helpful.I just want to ask if indeed you are a real Jehovahs Witness..I notice that you are a part of "Jehovahs Witness United"..There was an investigation concerning them about 3 years ago and the leader of it,a Heinz Schmitz was not a real witness but an imposter.The Watchtower Society said that he was not a Witness.If you are not a real Witness Brenton,you really shouldn't be proclaiming to be an expert.If you are a Witness,being a part of that group can get you disfellowshipped(I believe that is what they call it).An Elder at a nearby Kingdom Hall Church said so.Thanks-Dallas
-------------------------

Followup To

Question -
Thanks once again for your answer Brenton.Once again I want to quote what you said:"To be inspired by God means having direct communication in some way with God.  The only communication we have with God is his written word the Bible and prayer".Ok,I will take you definition of inspired on face value.I want to show you a quote from former Watchtower President Fred Franz:"They are passed to the Holy Spirit who invisibly communicates with Jehovah's Witnesses and the publicity department" (F. W. Franz, Vice-President of the Watchtower Society, Scottish Daily Express, Nov. 24, 1954)Here Franz claims "communication".You said and I quote:"To be inspired by God means having direct communication in some way with God"So once again I am going to ask you:Are the leaders at the Watchtower Society inspired as they claim?Or uninspired as you claim?And was Jehovah(Who makes no mistakes)to blame for the 1925 prediction?If in fact they do not Prophesy..How is it that PROHESYING is being carried out on an intensified and unparalled scale through them?Thank you for your response,Dallas
-------------------------

Followup To

Question -
Brenton,Thank you so much for your answer:The first thing I would like to point out is your very own quote:"Today ther are no inspired people who dorectly speak the word of God.  All his sayings are in the Bible.  We must try to understand what he has already said.  JWs do not go beyond what is already written"Now I would like to compare what you said to the Watchtower itself:"As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. All this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it. The abundance of spiritual food and the amazing details of Jehovah's purposes that have been revealed to Jehovah's anointed witnesses are clear evidence that they are the ones mentioned by Jesus when he foretold a "faithful and discreet slave" class that would be used to dispense God's progressive revelations in these last days." (Watchtower, June 15, 1964, p. 365)Ok,Brenton you stated that and I quote:"Today ther are no inspired people who dorectly speak the word of God".Yet,from the above quote the Watchtower society makes the claim that  "Through this agency he is having carried out PROPHESYING on an intensified and unparalleled scale"So which is correct?Are they inspired as they claim in the above quote?Or uninspired as you claim in your quote?And also if as you claim they are not Prophets,how is it that PROPHESYING is being carried out on an intensified and unparalled scale through them?Was it Jehovah who made the 1925 prediction?Thank you for your time,Dallas
-------------------------

Followup To

Question -
Dear Brenton,Like you I have researched the Prophecies of the Watch Tower society,and I feel that you may have missed one of your very own points.You stated that a Prophet foretells future events.Well,In 1920 JF Rutherford foretold that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob from the dead.And the Watchtower quote you gave in 1972 stated:"Who is this Prophet?They were known at that time as International Bible Students(JF Rutherford)today they are known as Jehovah's Christian Witnesses"(Insert mine).Therefore he being a Prophet did make a Prohecy that did not come to pass.So my question is:When is a Prophet not a Prophet?And are there any Bible instances where there were uninspired "Prophets"?I like to think of my self as open minded and if you can provide me with any such evidence,I will gladly read it.Thank you-Dallas

Answer -
Hello

Thank you for your question

Yes your are correct in that a prophet  (according to the English understanding of the word) is a person who foretells the future.

However the Bibles usage of the word prophet has a broader meaning, so should we not be guided by the Bibles meaning.

Both the Hebrew and the Greek words rendered as “prophet” convey the thought of a spokes person or someone speaking on behalf of another and not as a forteller of futer events.

In the Bible times there were inspired prophets. That is those that, under direct  influence of God, spoke for God an utterance that generally referred to a future event (but not always)


The information below is taken from my web page.  http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/hepburn/prophecy.htm
(this page also discusses the 1972 Watchtower article)

Capitals are there to emphasis what I consider main points.


The some is true of 1925. In 1920 The idea of 1925 was first (by my Research) put to the public in a talk that Rutherford gave in 1919 entitled "Millions now living will never die". No doubt, you have heard of this talk. I got my hands on a written copy of this copyrighted 1920 by International Bible Students Association. Rutherford based his conclusions on WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS AN APPLICATION of the jubilee system that was set up as recorded in Leviticus 25:1-17. This is explained on pages 87- 89 of the book. He understood that there would be 70 jubilees that would be kept. Wrongly, he applied Jeremiah 25:11 and 2 Chronicles 36:17-21 to arrive at the seventy Jubilees.

The chronology that they used put the starting point of these 70 Js (70 x 50 = 3500 years) at 1575 BC bringing us to 1925. 1575 was thought to have been the year the Israelites entered the land of Canaan (today the year is put at 1473 the reasons for this 100 year change will be included in my article on 1914). 1925 WAS THUS THOUGHT to be the year when the restoration of all things would begin…. It was assumed that there would be similarities in time periods in order to look forward as to what was to happen. They were keeping on the watch.

Often comments from page 88 are quoted where Rutherford says "The chief thing to be restored is the human race to life: and THE SCRIPTURES DEFINITELY FIX THE FACT THAT there will be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful ones of old, and that these ones will have the first favour." The portion in CAPITALS is what is used to assert prophecy because of it’s positive language, "definitely" and "will".

On page 13 of the book is the following statement.

"We INVITE the reader, therefore, TO EXAMINE EACH POINT CAREFULLY as here made, compare the argument with the Scriptures cited, and view the same in the light of present day events... Every man should be persuaded in his own mind and no man should permit himself to be deterred from examining a question based upon the Bible because a clergyman or any one else makes the unsupported assertion that it is dangerous or unworthy to consider" (CAPITALS mine)

He clearly states that what he was about to lay out in front of people WAS NOT PROPHECY …….but ……an evaluation of what was to come BASED ON WHAT THE SCRIPTURE RECORDS SHOWED, and that the reader should come to his own conclusion after examining the evidence. Page 97 of the book he again reaffirms that, what he had said was from the Bible. Note his comments:

"BASED ON THE ARGUMENTS HERETOFORE SET FORTH, then, that the old order of things, the old world is ending... that soon shall mark the resurection of the faithfull worthies of old and the begining of the reconstruction, it is REASONABLE to conclude that millions of people now on earth will be still on earth in 1925. Then, BASED UPON THE PROMISES SET FORTH IN THE DIVINE WORD, we must reach the positive and indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die" .....   ( Rutherford was a lawyer and this sounds like a lawyer summing up a case doesn't it. Perhaps his ultra positive way of wording things had to do with his law training!). He thus SHOWS his CONFIDENCE , not in what he is saying, but IN WHAT HE BELIEVED TO BE THE FULFILLMENT OF BIBLE PROPHECY NOT HIS OWN.


Is there a difference between what Rutherford said and a “prophet” as   we generally understand the word “prophet”.

Lets take as an example t he man Nostradamus.  He wrote "Prophecy" that people today try to understand and interpret. Here, in Adelaide, we have had TV programs dealing with what Nostradarmus wrote, with people giving their ideas on the meaning. None of those people have been said to be "prophesying" but interpreting what they see in his writings and all "credit" has gone to Nostradamus. That analogy is the same for the WTBTS; they have been people trying to interpret the words of our creator as put down in the Bible and all credit goes to God not to the person “interpreting” the “prophecy”.  

JWs have never uttered a new distinct prophecy (as in the case of Nostradamus or better still the prophets that are recorded in the Bible).  Anythink that they said is based on their understanding of what other people have written (namely Gods prophets from old)

Are there any examples in the Bible of individuals used by God that misunderstood information and mad a false interpretation of that information .  Yes

There is an example that involved our good friend Peter (now here is some one we could write a whole lot about). He miss understood (in other words interpreted wrongly) some information that he received straight from Jesus. He miss understood exactly what it was that Jesus was trying to say to him and he spread a saying (if you read this carefully he is prophesying, that is saying something will happen) to "among the brethren" (JKV) Lets read the account   (CAPITALS MINE FOR EMPHASES)

John 21:20-23 Upon turning about Peter saw the disciple whom Jesus used to love following, the one who at the evening meal had also leaned back upon his breast and said: "Lord, who is the one betraying you?" 21 Accordingly, when he caught sight of him, Peter said to Jesus: "Lord, what will this [man do]?" 22 Jesus said to him: "If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me." 23 IN CONSEQUENCE, THIS SAYING WENT OUT AMONG THE BROTHERS, THAT, THAT DISCIPLE WOULD NOT DIE. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but: "If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?"

Interesting example of coming to the wrong conclusion is it not?    Peter misunderstand what Jesus said, opened his mouth, sprouted what he though, and it went out to all the congregations.  Now was Peter denied being used by God. No he was given the Keys to the Kingdom and the privilege of seeing the first Gentiles baptised as well as writing two books of the Bible.

That example, only being very small, is included in the Bible Note what Paul wrote to the Romans in 15 :4 “4 For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope”.   That applied at that time to the information the 1st century Christians had regarding the “old Testament” but surely it would apply to us for all the Bible.  How is it for our instruction?  It shows me that we must look beyond human reasoning and shows that we, even those “with responsibilities” will make mistakes and we should expect mistakes to happen.

Today ther are no inspired people who dorectly speak the word of God.  All his sayings are in the Bible.  We must try to understand what he has already said.  JWs do not go beyond what is already written

I hope this has answered your question

Please feel free to ask for more clarification if you need it

Brenton


Answer -
Hello  Dallas,

Thank you for your follow up question.

I understand that many people are under the impression that JWs say they are inspired because it is stated as you quoted in that Watchtower

"Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale."

This is NOT saying that anyone of JWs is inspired.

To be inspired by God means having direct communication in some way with God.  The only communication we have with God is his written word the Bible and prayer.

How does he reveal truth to "leaders" of JWs? By their earnest study of his word.

But do not other religions earnestly study his word?

Other religious organizations do spend a lot of time and effort studying the Bible.

So why the difference?

Because, well let me use the Bible to answer that

Matthew 7:21- 23  “21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness”

First, not every one calling themselves a follower of Jesus is acceptable.   Jesus classed those not acceptable to him as” workers of lawlessness”

John 4:34 “34 Jesus said to them: “My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work”    

John 5:30   "30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me."

To be acceptable to God we MUST be going his will just as Jesus did.  Now that is really the hard part.  Determining just what is the will of God and who is doing it.

When Jesus was on earth he preached the kingdom of God and said in Matt 24:14 that the good news of Gods kingdom will be preached in all the earth.  

Any religious organization that is claiming to be a representative of God must be preaching the good news of Gods kingdom.

We feel that up until Jesus was given kingly power in 1914 any Christian religion had the opportunity to be chosen as Gods representatives.  (This is based on several of the parables and prophecies Jesus gave regarding the establishment of his presence., and will take a great deal of time to explain all the details.   You can send a  private email if you want all the details)  We feel that the Bible Students at that time (and now) were the only ones proclaiming Gods government.

God does not give full enlightenment straight away,  He expects us to dig for it in his word as one would dig for a treasure.  In his due time he lets understanding come to light.

This is based on the example of Jesus and his apostle.  Many times he had to correct the thinking of his apostles about his king ship and the kingdom (If you want the scriptural details of that I will provide them)

SO God lets the understanding come at his due time not by some direct communication by getting a fuller understanding of his word, by diligent study.

Your question was "So which is correct?Are they inspired as they claim in the above quote?Or uninspired as you claim in your quote?"

The answer is we  (that is JWs) do not see that Watchtower as saying anyone is inspired but that God allows his "channel" to come to a clearer understanding in his due time.

What about the “is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale” as that article stated?

That is not talking about new prophecy, but speaking out on behalf of God about the coming destruction of this system when Satan and all his followers will be done away with often referred to as Armageddon.

How is it "intensified and unparalleled scale"? becase JWs volunterily put a lot of effort into preaching the Godd news of God Kingdom in over 235 counties and lands in an effort to warn all that will heed the warning

There is no new prophesying happening but a declaring of Gods words regarding the time we live in as reported in the Bible

I understand that what I have just written will seem hard to understand, but to get the full import of all that will take many pages of explanation form the Bible

SO after all that, JWs do not belive that that Watchter is saying that any one is inspired nor do we prophecy anything new but learn from experience and study and tell what is a already written


I hope this has helped in some way

Brenton


Answer -
Hi Dallas,

Thank again for your question,

Sometimes it is difficult to grasp concepts from other people especially when we do not have all the background information.

I understand why you find the saying “ that PROPHESYING is being carried out on an intensified and unparalleled scale� when I have said that we do not and have not prophecied.

To try to set the picture I will re state some information I wrote before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes your are correct in that a prophet  (according to the English understanding of the word) is a person who foretells the future.

However the Bibles usage of the word prophet has a broader meaning, so should we not be guided by the Bibles meaning.

Both the Hebrew and the Greek words rendered as “prophet� convey the thought of a spokes person or someone speaking on behalf of another and not as a foreteller of future events
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

(Just to clarify the line "and not as a foreteller of future events".  In the days of thje Bible writteres there was a fortelling of events.  BUT it did not come from the prophet.  They were echoing the words of God. So God was the forteller of events, the prophets juts spoke for Jehovah, carrying His message not their own.)


So we should start looking at the words “prophet� and “prophesying� from the meanings used in the Bible and not from the modern understanding of the word.

We understand the word “prophetâ€? to mean someone that speaks for someone els.  (in the case of the Bible the prophets spoke on behalf of Jehovah).  In the days of the Bible the prophets of Jehovah were told what to prophesy or speak on behalf of Jehovah by some form of direct communication.  Some had angels deliver messages to them, some had visions and dreams, etc. Today none of that happens.

What we do have is communication from God by way of a letter he has written to each and every one of us, his word the Bible. The Bible was written under inspiration from the Holy Spirit.   By following the writings of the Bible we are having communication from God via his Spirit. It is up to each one of us to listen to what God says and get the sense of it.

Now I will cut and past from a previous answer as to why we feel JWs are being directed by Spirit.  Please NOTE this is a brief overview of the matter and not a detailed discution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How does he reveal truth to "leaders" of JWs? By their earnest study of his word.

But do not other religions earnestly study his word?

Other religious organizations do spend a lot of time and effort studying the Bible.

So why the difference?

Because, well let me use the Bible to answer that

Matthew 7:21- 23  "21 “Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name? 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessnessâ€?

First, not every one calling themselves a follower of Jesus is acceptable.   Jesus classed those not acceptable to him asâ€? workers of lawlessnessâ€?

John 4:34 "34 Jesus said to them: “My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his workâ€?    

John 5:30   "30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me."

To be acceptable to God we MUST be going his will just as Jesus did.  Now that is really the hard part.  Determining just what is the will of God and who is doing it.

When Jesus was on earth he preached the kingdom of God and said in Matt 24:14 that the good news of Gods kingdom will be preached in all the earth.  

Any religious organization that is claiming to be a representative of God must be preaching the good news of Gods kingdom.

We feel that up until Jesus was given kingly power in 1914 any Christian religion had the opportunity to be chosen as Gods representatives.  (This is based on several of the parables and prophecies Jesus gave regarding the establishment of his presence., and will take a great deal of time to explain all the details.   You can send a  private email if you want all the details)  We feel that the Bible Students at that time (and now) were the only ones proclaiming Gods government.

God does not give full enlightenment straight away,  He expects us to dig for it in his word as one would dig for a treasure.  In his due time he lets understanding come to light.

This is based on the example of Jesus and his apostle.  Many times he had to correct the thinking of his apostles about his king ship and the kingdom (If you want the scriptural details of that I will provide them)

SO God lets the understanding come at his due time not by some direct communication by getting a fuller understanding of his word, by diligent study.

Your question was "So which is correct? Are they inspired as they claim in the above quote? Or uninspired as you claim in your quote?"

The answer is we  (that is JWs) do not see that Watchtower as saying anyone is inspired but that God allows his "channel" to come to a clearer understanding in his due time.

What about the quote   â€śis having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scaleâ€? as that article stated?

That is not talking about new prophecy, but speaking out on behalf of God about the coming destruction of this system when Satan and all his followers will be done away with often referred to as Armageddon.

How is it "intensified and unparalleled scale"? because JWs voluntarily put a lot of effort into preaching the God news of God Kingdom in over 235 counties and lands in an effort to warn all that will heed the warning

There is no new prophesying happening but a declaring of Gods words regarding the time we live in as reported in the Bible

I understand that what I have just written will seem hard to understand, but to get the full import of all that will take many pages of explanation form the Bible

SO after all that, JWs do not believe that that Watcher is saying that any one is inspired nor do we prophecy anything new but learn from experience and study and tell what is a already written
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

For us, the Bible clearly indicates the time we are living in as the time of the end.  Jehovah has always warned of coming destruction.  His word the Bible sets out that warning, we spread that warning. By spreading that warning that has already been foretold, we are in effect, according to the Hebrew and Greek meaning of the word translated “prophecyâ€? prophesying.  The coming destruction is that of Satan’s system leaving only people that are doing Gods will.   So JWs have intensified their “prophesyingâ€? (that is speaking of Gods coming tome of destruction) by preaching the Good News of Gods Kingdom and the benefits it will bring to the earth.  This is being done in over 230 lands Islands and countries in over 400 languages.  We intensify our preaching work with out let up, not to  make converts but to warn.  It is up to the individual to listen to the warning and make the changes if the so desire.


Brenton


Answer -
Hi Dallas,

Yes I am a REAL Witness.

I wnat to thank you for pointing out about the "Jehovahs Witness United" web ring.  I have not heard of any "investigation concerning them about 3 years ago and the leader of it,a Heinz Schmitz was not a real witness but an imposter"  Where and how did you here of the investigation?

You may have noticed from the dates on my site that I have not updated anything there fro some time.  I have been preparing material to go there, but I lost it all some time back with a major compter malfunction and have had to start all my reasurch over again.

Being dissfelloshiped is for proclaming, and promoting  something against the Organisation. That I have not done nor will do. When I joined that web ring about 10 years ago, all the links that were there then, I looked at, were to my opinion genuine, and unfortunately I do not think I have looked at it since. I will go check it out now. If it proves to be an apostate web ring, I will remove the link.

Were my replies able to satify your questions?

Brenton

Answer
Hi Dallas,

The  Watchtower Observer web site was not a JW website.  It was the work of an ex JW Kent Steinhaug, who was very vocal and anti JW.

I have in the past read many posts from Heinz Schmitz and none of his material that I saw went against JW teaching.  However from what I have observed is he is no lionger active on the internt (at least not under that name) and from what I read he stoped beliving in religion alltogether as he started a weekly internet news letter called "the christian sceptic" or somethinmg very similar.  That just stoped sudenly when Heinze disappeared form the net.

I would be interested in knowing from you just what you understood me to be saying. Can you, if you want to, re cap on what I said so that I know I have explained things to you.  I am worried that I I may not have expressed myself clearly and not given you a JW perspective on the matter of prophecying.

Perhaps you might like to start a new question as this one is getting long and confusing to anyone that might read it, or write to me personaly with my email address

Brenton