Expert: Andrew - 12/8/2006

Question
I read your answer to a previous question on disfellowship, and have one of my own, based on inner concern for my husband.  I am a Roman Catholic, and he a JW, though neither of us attend church regularly.  Before we married, he went to the elders and spoke with them, about what I do not know, but when he returned home he told me not to worry, everything was alright and he was not disfellowshiped.  Due to the type of work we do, it is not possible for him to attend the meetings regularly, and I rarely attend with him, but I do study with a JW to gain more understanding about the beliefs.  I have no obligations with him trying to teach our children his beliefs, and continue to do the same with my beliefs.  I have baptized my daughter, and altough he does not agree with it, he did not refuse for me to do so (as her mother, I do not think I would have done otherwise had he refused, to be honest with you).  Although I do not completely understand or believe the same things, I do worry that me not giving in to his religion could cause problems for him with his elders.  Can he be disfellowshiped if I refuse to become or JW?  And if I continue to teach my children beliefs that are not his, will he (or they) be turned away?  Also, Jesus told the men who wanted to stone the woman, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," which to me follows the same lines as "judge not lest ye be judged."  How is it right for the elders to disfellowship someone when they are not in the position (Jehovah's position) to judge other people or their mistakes?  I feel the same about Catholic priests listening to confession; they do not have the power to ulitmatley forgive me for my sins, therefore I do not attend confession.

Answer
Dear Victoria,

Extrapolating from your story, and based on what I know of the Witnesses, when your husband visited the Witness elders before you were married, it was to justify himself in their eyes for marrying a non-Witness, or at least mitigate his error in their eyes; since Witness elders would most definitely disapprove of his marrying a non-Witness.

Witnesses can be expelled and cut off from all their friends and family for failing to meet even the most trivial expectations, for failing to capitulate to the wishes of their elders in any way whatsoever. (Of course, to the Witnesses they are not trivial, but rather life-and-death matters; but to most people many of these things would be considered trivial.)

I suggest that, in order to protect your children well, you should read one or more books on the subject of mind control. The Witnesses definitely do use mind control tactics, and your children will likely suffer needlessly if you are not prepared to mitigate the effect. I suggest a book such as Steven Hassan's "Releasing the Bonds". I'm not suggesting you should directly oppose your husband's efforts to teach the children, nor even teach them anything negative about the Witnesses; but rather just empower yourself to mitigate possible damage by understanding better what mind control is, how to identify it before you yourself get in too deep, how to respond to it effectively in reasonable ways.

Everyone is vulnerable to cult mind control until they can do these things well, no matter how spiritual, no matter how well educated. It is very insidious, and appealing in unexpected ways.

Yes, if you do not give in to him about his religion, his elders will be disappointed. Probably he has been promising them that he is working on you. Certainly they are expecting you to convert, for they do not study the bible with anyone without holding that expectation. If they were convinced that you are not going to convert, they would consider it pointless to continue studying the bible with you.

Witnesses are not normally disfellowshipped for marrying non-Witnesses. But if a man in a position of privilege among the Witnesses marries a non-Witness he will be expected to step down. And there are other levels of shunning. Besides disfellowshipping, there is also what they call "marking", which is a less formal version of shunning. It is very common for a Witness to be "marked", which means social isolation, for marrying a non-Witness. The above is what would be usual among Witnesses. Yet to some extent, there is no rhyme nor reason to their disfellowshipping actions.

If your husband was not disfellowshipped shortly after your marriage, I think it is unlikely that he will be. That is, it is unlikely at this point (assuming you have been married for some time now) unless they confront him, and he fails to capitulate or "cops an attitude". Then he could very well be disfellowshipped still now, long after the fact.

The most common cause for disfellowshipping is attitude. It is never really the supposed "sin" that they point to which turns out to be the real cause. The real cause for disfellowshipping is always what they would call "independent thinking", or failing to capitulate to the elders when the speak to you about a misstep they believe you have taken. Every rank and file Witness is expected to capitulate immediately and completely under every circumstance, even cooperate fully with an invasion of their privacy, as the Witnesses have no concept of privacy or personal decisions where their elders are concerned. Failing to capitulate is always the ultimate cause for disfellowshipping. The list of sins they point to as ostensible causes is so extensive and often so trivial as you cannot imagine.

So as long as he continues to give in respectfully every time he speaks to the elders, it is unlikely he will ever be disfellowshipped because of anything you might do.

They will be disappointed, however, when they discover that you are only studying the bible with them out of academic interest, and they may pressure him to defy you more overtly with regard to the children in order to save their eternal lives.

If you continue to teach your children Catholic beliefs, "will he (or they) be turned away?" I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean disfellowshipped/expelled, see above. The children cannot be disfellowshipped unless they have been baptized as Witnesses, which typically occurs around ages 13 to 15.

If you mean turned away informally/socially, yes, definitely. This is what I mean by "marked". When they discover you aren't serious about becoming a Witness, your children will probably be considered bad associates in the eyes of other Witness parents, who will likely forbid their children from befriending yours. To the extent they continue to befriend your children, it will be in an effort to proselytize, and this will be done primarily by adults or inner-circle youths, not the typical youths who are more likely your children's casual friends, if any, among the Witnesses. In other words, casual friends will evaporate, and only those who feel capable of helping save your children's eternal lives will remain friendly.

The logic of what is right, and the application of Christian principles will not make any Witness change their behavior; as they consider you a person who knows no better. It is very easy for them to dismiss your concerns and your understanding of scripture and Christian ideals as misguided. Any counsel that you may have for them will be like water off a duck's back to a Witness. This is normal among cults. After you read a book like the one I suggested, this will make more sense to you.

I can only help you understand the mental and social dynamics, I will not attempt to justify it. Even just understanding may have benefit because you will have better success in responding to something you understand than something that creeps up deceptively from behind.

They may agree with you superficially on the ideas you've stated regarding judgement and stoning; yet they have very complex mental gymnastics that allow them to continue complying with every iota written in the Watchtower magazine, even when doing so contradicts fundamental Christian teachings such as love.

They believe in theory that when a body of Witness elders sits in judgement, they are seeking to follow a decision that has already been made in heaven, not making an original decision of their own. This is the mental gymnastic that allows them to disown responsibility for their frequent hurtful actions. And there are a wide range of other mind games they use to make it appear justified and even loving when they "mark" or disfellowship or even put a child out on the street. Even though their gut may tell them it's wrong to do so, they do not listen to their gut.

Do not expect Witness tactics to make sense nor follow even the same basic principles that you have come to identify as Christian. In some cases, even what most would consider fundamental human behavior is missing or distorted beyond recognition among Witnesses. Do some reading, and you will then be able to educate yourself more on what is really happening with them socially, mentally, and emotionally. It is not at all like what they teach you in your bible studies together. Even they don't know what they are doing. Even your husband probably does not know.

How can anyone know the real reasons for controlling Witness organizational policies until they allow themselves to see the other sides of the issues? They cannot allow themselves to consider the other side because they really believe their organization directly represents God, and calling the organization wrong would be in their minds like calling God wrong. They are not capable of it.

During my recovery, I got sick the first time I entertained the thought. I expected to be struck by lightning the first time I allowed myself to criticize the Witness Governing Body. Yet it was a valuable step in beginning to reclaim my own mind.

I know that Catholics are sometimes accused of being a controlling religion, and you yourself may have some negative experiences with controlling, such as the confessional you mentioned. Even loyal Catholics who have no plans to change their religious life are often heard making similar criticisms; which is a sign of a healthy organization, that criticism is possible. I respect Catholicism as a more genuine faith partly because the rank and file can criticize the organization without deworlding themselves. Among Witnesses, it is not possible. They cannot bring themselves to consider that their organization might be wrong in even trivial respects. And this is how complete control becomes possible.

Even though you may think that you, as a Catholic, have experience with a controlling organization, the Witnesses are far more controlling than Catholicism. Let me tell you a brief story that may help you put this into perspective...

I have a friend who grew up Catholic and called himself a "recovering Catholic", meaning that he no longer practiced Catholicism, and was recovering from what he believed were some negative emotional effects from his upbringing as a Catholic. So when I told him I was a former Witness, and was going to attend a support group meeting for former Witnesses that day, he decided to tag along. He figured that since he had grown up in a supposedly controlling religion, he might be in need of attending a support group as much as I was.

So he attended with me that day. The content of the meeting was about Witnesses in recovery. There was no formal presentation, just individuals sharing their stories in an atmosphere of understanding and validation.

Guess what my Catholic friend said to me after the meeting? He said, "I had no idea!" He was dumbfounded that such a degree of control and manipulation was possible.

The moral of my story to you, Victoria, is that, although the Witnesses and the Catholics may be similar in some respects (both Christian, both said to be controlling, both teach traditional values), the form of indoctrination, control, manipulation, and deception practiced by the Witnesses is much more intense than even most Catholics can imagine.

There is danger for your children, and even for you personally. Please forearm yourself carefully. Even if you do take my warning seriously, also be careful what you say. The book I recommended above will help you with strategies on what to say without making matters worse. (As you may know, it is very easy to make matters worse when dealing with Witnesses because there are many things they are not able to hear.)

I wish you the best of success. Please write me if you have any additional specific questions, or if there is anything I have said that needs clarification.

Best wishes,
AndrewXJW