Expert: Andrew - 4/13/2007

Question
Hello Andrew,

I tried to post this a a follow up and it was refused two times so I have decided to try as a question

Thank you again for your very prompt answer.

To tell you the truth, as soon as you started talking about mind control I switched of and went looking for an answer to my question.  It is not that mind control does not interest me it is that for me it had nothing to do with the question.  I was only interested in a direct answer to my question.

If you had answered my question first with the list and them went onto other things I would have continued reading.
I did not ask for a theological debate but I was wanting to know from you why you saw these as rules. You have partly answered that in the this last response.

There are some aspects of what you said that I have no idea as to how to comment as I need more information from a Biblical point of view to give an answer.  For example you asked


“Do you feel it is the Christian way to disapprove of others and then use such disapproval as an excuse to withhold compassion from them? Or is Christianity not rather a faith which teaches that "God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten son"? and that "God is love"? “


The whole point of me being here more often now is to try to learn what a Christian perspective is.  From what I understand of the Bible Jesus set boundaries for his followers, so I guess the same would follow through today.  I remember reading that Jesus made some comment about thinking wrong desires and that it was a “sin”, but I would have to try to find that.  So if Jesus said some thoughts were wrong, isn’t that a form of manipulation and mind control?  Did he try to control the lives of others by saying that? If he did then either Christianity is a farce or mind control is a farce. I might be wrong but it seems to me, that some form of mind control is acceptable.  Using what your reasoning is the governments are guilty of setting road laws, and alcohol limits when driving, and tax laws because they aim to control us.  I understand that from this wording from you

“Rather my claim is that they use their rules as a means of exerting extraordinary control, and measuring compliance”

Perhaps their “rules” as you refer to are for their  “protection” just as road laws are for a “protection”?

You also said

“Do not expect the Witnesses to give you the unvarnished truth about any of these items.”

That is the reason I wanted you to elaborate on one of them, so that I could see both sides

You give one brief example but with no proof of what you assert.  The example was

“To elaborate on one item I have listed, studying the Bible without Watchtower literature: The reason this is prohibited is because they believe individuals studying the Bible without the guidance of Watchtower literature will come to incorrect, disapproved conclusions. They believe God only guides people through approved channels, not directly in their personal lives or through the divine within. Therefore they believe conformity to the many requirements relayed through the organization is the only way to receive God's guidance.”


There are some things from your list that I truly doubt are rules e.g.

- Attending a University to increase earning power or for self development
- Socializing more than a few times a year with relatives who were never Witnesses
- Hanging wind chimes on your porch
- Maintaining friendships with non-Witness friends
- Having coffee after work with co-workers
- Reading romance novels
- Watching daytime soap operas

I will be asking some JWs here for their comments on these.

The blood issue, well I know what their theological point of view why the do not have blood, and I am aware of the ever increasing number of Doctors and hospital that thing that blood is not a good choice for health and medical reasons.

At the end you give what you say is a most notable example, however again you provide no proof. I want proof of what you say so that I can get the other side.

- Exercising unconditional love

Did you know that the Witnesses actually teach that unconditional love is wrong


I am not being indoctrinated by JWs as I am not studying with them.


Answer
Dear Gordon,

The Bible and other sacred scriptures are ancient. Therefore, while they may arm us with wisdom on how to cope, they do not directly answer questions on modern sociology nor politics. Therefore, while we may seek applicable wisdom from the Bible on how to deal with sociology and politics, we must use our own judgement in these things. Even those who follow ancient scripture as a daily guide must do this in order to be forearmed regarding sociological and political pitfalls.

I do not claim to offer direct answers first, then elaborate. I tend to write the most relevant part of my answer first. Your choice to skip over what I consider the most relevant part is your choice; just as the potential consequence is yours.

> So if Jesus said some thoughts were wrong, isn’t that a
> form of manipulation and mind control?  Did he try to
> control the lives of others by saying that?

I do not believe that Jesus used mind control, because mind control includes deception, and I do not believe Jesus ever deceived; and because mind control involves an orchestrated system of tactics which simultaneously overwhelm by controlling a social environment (reversing the time sequence of action and decision), and Jesus never did this. I do not believe Jesus ever manipulated. Manipulation means insidiously maneuvering situations to create an outcome rather than asking straightforwardly for what you want.

Rather Jesus taught clearly and honestly, and allowed his listeners to decide based on whether their spirit was touched by his words. (This is one man's opinion about Jesus and should not be interpreted as an expert answer.)

> Using what your reasoning is the governments are guilty of
> setting road laws, and alcohol limits when driving, and
> tax laws because they aim to control us.

There are many forms of influence and control. Not all of them constitute manipulation or mind control. Road laws are direct and straightforward. There is a clear requirement and a simple consequence. Therefore it is not akin to mind control.

>>“Rather my claim is that they use their rules as a means
>>of exerting extraordinary control, and measuring
>>compliance”
>Perhaps their “rules” as you refer to are for their  
>“protection” just as road laws are for a “protection”?

You really are talking like a Witness. Yes of course their rules are for their protection from their point of view. However, since their degree of control is extraordinary compared to that exercised by other churches, most people becoming involved with the Witnesses are unaware of the degree to which they will have to give up control over their own decision making. Their degree of extremity in consequences for failure to comply with members who are fully indoctrinated is also extraordinary compared with other churches, and therefore people becoming involved are also unaware of this.

When someone makes a decision (such as to become a Witness) that is not fully informed because they are unaware of future consequences, they sometimes make a decision that they would not make had they been more fully informed. The Witnesses never inform their students in advance regarding these things (extraordinary degree of control and extreme consequences), but only disclose them gradually, because they know people who were fully informed in advance would be less likely to join them. This non-disclosure is a form of dishonesty. Cults practice such behaviors because they believe the end (salvation) justifies the means (deception).

> You give one brief example but with no proof of what you
> assert...Studying the Bible without Watchtower literature
> prohibited because...

You will find that proof is not possible in social, political, and spiritual matters, Gordon. One can present evidence, but ultimately people decide to embrace what they decide to embrace, often despite the evidence. So there is no scientific proof in this or any other social, political, psychological, or spiritual issue.

My evidence is both anecdotal, based on stories I have heard about Bethelites who were expelled for studying the Bible without Watchtower literature; and direct, based on statements I read myself in Watchtower literature reproving Witnesses who read the Bible without the guidance of Watchtower literature. You must decide for yourself of course whether my evidence is worthy of consideration. I suggest you trust your gut as you do so.

> There are some things from your list that I truly doubt
> are rules e.g.
> Attending a University to increase earning power or for
> self development
> Socializing more than a few times a year with relatives
> who were never Witnesses
> Hanging wind chimes on your porch
> Maintaining friendships with non-Witness friends
> Having coffee after work with co-workers
> Reading romance novels
> Watching daytime soap operas

As I said, there is no official published list of rules, but rather they are found by reading hundreds of pages a year and listening to hundreds of hours of lecture per year. I heard or read each of these behaviors denounced in official Watchtower literature or lectures.

Most people doubt such an unbelievable degree of control because they cannot imagine that any church could be so controlling. But I was a Witness for 30 years, Gordon, and I have not made up a single statement. Fortunately for you, there are many experienced people like me you could choose to consult with over the Internet who could provide an insider view of the Witness organization, so you don't need to take my word for it.

> The blood issue, well I know what their theological point
> of view why the do not have blood, and I am aware of the
> ever increasing number of Doctors and hospital that thing
> that blood is not a good choice for health and medical
> reasons.

This is a unique perspective held by Witnesses to justify their medically-ill-advised prohibition on blood. Virtually no one else in the world makes statements like this except Witnesses. So the evidence suggests that you actually are a Witness posing as a non-Witness. This does not come as a surprise to me. Witnesses do things like this because they believe the end ("salvation") justifies the means (deception).

If you are not a Witness, you are at the very least unusally pro-Witness in your perspectives, and with such pro-Witness inclinations, you will not be able to make the unbiased assessment you described. Good luck on that.

>> the Witnesses actually teach that unconditional love
>> is wrong
> At the end you give what you say is a most notable
> example, however again you provide no proof. I want proof
> of what you say so that I can get the other side.

As I say, there is no proof, only evidence. You will decide the weight of the evidence for yourself.

There is no disagreement or controversy around two key facts: Jehovah's Witnesses expel tens of thousands of members per year against their will, and then shun those former members. They are very unique in this respect. No mainstream church does anything even remotely similar. Only cults do this, because their ethics of separateness and purity.

Do you believe such a broad-scale behavior (expulsion and shunning) is possible in an environment of unconditional love?

Without resorting to my own interpretation, here's what I repeatedly saw and heard myself from the Witnesses: They state that:

   'Unconditional love of people is wrong because
   we have to hate what God hates.'

The implication of such a statement, is that God hates certain people, so we should too.

They seem to give less emphasis to the verses that are more universally celebrated among diverse spiritual paths: "God is love", and "God so loved the world that he gave his only forgotten son"; and more emphasis to verses that seem to justify hatred and shunning and purity and separateness.

Although their literature sometimes distinguishes between behaviors and persons, and say we should love the person but hate their bad behavior, sometimes the line is also blurred in their literature, and how can it be otherwise? For the heart does not love in slices.

For example, they often quite 1 Corinthians 15:33, which says "Bad associations spoil useful habits". Note that an association is an event or behavior. "Association" means to engage socially in a certain way; in this case in a bad way. So such a thing as a bad manner of social engagement exists, and such things are to be avoided, according to this verse.

The word "association" does not mean a person. The word would be "associate" if a person was meant. But Witness literature almost always interprets the word "association" in this verse to mean a certain person. This interpretation makes it seem justified to avoid all engagement with certain persons rather than avoiding certain kinds of engagement with all persons.

In practice, when the door to hate is opened, and shunning behaviors are practiced, and members are expected to turn each other in, putting supposed "purity" ahead of brotherly love, they cannot help but keep keep their love tentative. So many Witness youth grow up never knowing unconditional love, even from their parents--a very unhealthy way of life.

This is why it is such a moving experience for many Witnesses who first discover unconditional love OUTSIDE their organization, and choose to leave the organization to get more of it.

In fact, this was a key factor in my escape from the Witness mindset. I had been familiar with John 13:35 ("By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another") throughout my Witness career and (never having observed real love) I believed it applied to the Witnesses.

Then when I first discovered real love, which is by nature unconditional, and I found it OUTSIDE their organization, it was a very compelling experience that made me re-examine my belief that the Witnesses were Jesus' only true disciples, as I had believed for decades up until then.

The Witnesses try to redefine or reframe love, as they do with many things. Redefining words to fit their worldview is one of the tactics that cults use to control minds. But love is such a core human experience, it cannot be redefined without creating doubts. Witnesses repress such doubts. Ex-Witnesses are liberated by them, as I was.

You can read a number of similar personal stories online. Try typing "unconditional love jehovah's witness" into Google; and "unconditional love" into the site search at http://freeminds.org/

Best wishes,
Andrew