Expert: Andrew - 6/26/2007

Question
Hello  Andrew,

You do not have to be a spiritual leader for your views of the Bible to
count.  In this matter your view of the Bible is extremely relevant.
 By your not accepting what the Bible says on this subject, then you are
speaking from an unrelated point of view.  If you want to discusss
"mind control" about any religion, you must present information that
directly relates to that subject from what ever source that religious group
uses.  By not accepting the Bible, or being willing to use it, you are
rejecting the idea of a God.

You ARE using deception to manipulate your readers by not giving true
details.  You give only half truths and out right false information.
 For example when I said

"Jws teach and encourage strong family ties no matter what
the religious beliefs of the other members."

You say the following

"This is an outright lie. Your literature repeatedly justifies shunning
between family members where one has been expelled because of not
living up to your man-made interpretations"

Down the page further I give examples form various Watchtowers that
show that I am correct.
You are also wrong when you say  . "Non-Witnesses do not shun. Only
Witnesses do."    What a misleading statement to say we are the only ones
to shun  "We are not the only people that cut ties.  There are several
religious groups both claiming to be Christian and non Christian that
cut ties.  Not only religious groups but ethnic groups will do the same
thing.  Other religions include the Catholic Church, Anabaptists:
Amish, Mennonites, and Hutterites, Judaism and Bahai

You also make this statement which you not substantiate "a way of life
like you have SIMPLY MUST believe it is right, even where there is no
evidence that it's right, even when there's abundant evidence that it's
wrong, "  You can not provide any evidence that our way (the Bibles
way, again you must use this book to prove your point) is wrong.  Some men
have said that our way is wrong, you belive it, but where is the
proof. Shunning!! God is  God of love as you rightly; say , BUT, his Love
for mankind IS conditional.  Prove from the Bible that shunning is wrong.
 You can not.

Our text book is the Bible.  We go by its standards not mans.
 Everything we teach is found in the Bible. If that makes us wrong so be it.
 Now you prove that our standard contradict the Bible.


I know you disagree with that.  By staying exclusively by the man made
reasonings you are also under the mind control ideas of those men.
Belive it or not.  I prefer Gods ways not mans.  You, by what you say do
not have time for Gods ways.  If you think I am wrong or if that
statement is  a logical non-sequitur then defend yourself, give yourself some
credibility.


You are so wrong about JWs and families.  If a child of a JW is put on
the street simply because they were disallows shipped, the parents
would also (or should be) disallows.

We have a moral obligation to look after our families. If a family
member is disfellowshiped ALL ties ARE NOT broken.  Most are but NOT ALL
TIES.  If a family member is in need physically because the are ill or
have no home due to no fault of their own we are obligated to look after
them.. If we do spiritual ties are kept to a minimum.  That is what we
are taught.  We can bring family members back into the household to
care for their needs if the situation arises.


JWs do all in their power to maintain family ties.  

As in every group, there will be some that go beyond the standard set.

Disfellowshiping is not meant to be a final outcome where there is no
return.  Disfellowshiping is not a fear factor as you seem to portray.
It is a discipline factor that is used as a LAST RESORT in order to
readjust someone one.

Why do we do that.  I know you do not want to talk theology but  ponder
over these texts.  They are not theology but personal thinking and
relationship issues that affected the lives of people that God wanted to
follow him.  If you can not accept these then again I say you do not
belive in God

First here is 1 Corinthians 5:11 "But rather I wrote to you not to
associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of
immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not
even to eat with such a one." (RSV)

How plain is that? It can not be much clearer.  It is not some mans
interpretation but pain instructions.


Look at the history of the Israelites. They were told that they MUST
OBEY God. When they did they prospered, when they did not the suffered.
 Now if that is not controlling the social environment .... obey or
die.... what is.  God requires us to obey him.

Those that are dissfellowshiped do so because it is their choice. By
the way Gods love for mankind IS Conditional. It always has been and will
always be.  The conditions that God puts on us is for our own good,
and the good of the community.

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if you will obey my voice and keep my
covenant, you shall be my own possession among all peoples; for all the earth
is mine, (RSV)

Deut 11:13  "And if you will obey my commandments which I command you
this day, (RSV)

Acts 5:29  We must obey God rather than men.(RSV)

Romans 12:2  Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by
the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God,
what is good and acceptable and perfect.(RSV)

Matt 2:48  You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is
perfect.(RSV)

John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but
because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world,
therefore the world hates you.(RSV)

Matt 5:28  But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman
lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.(RSV)

Philippians 2:5  have this mind among yourselves

Philippians 4:2 That you be of the same mind in the Lord (KJV) please
with the Lords help quarrel no more (LB) to agree with each other (NIV)
I beg you by name to make up your differences (PME) Come to agreement
with each other (JB)

Ephesians 4:20-24 and ye did not so learn the Christ, 21 if so be ye
did hear him, and in him were taught, as truth is in Jesus; 22 ye are to
put off concerning the former behaviour the old man that is corrupt
according to the desires of the deceit, 23 and to be renewed in the
spirit of your mind, 24 and to put on the new man, which, according to God,
was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.(YLT)

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 “11  And such were some of you. But you were
washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord
Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” (RSV)

We live by Bible principles.  That is what it means to be a Christian.
 Following the way of the Bible.  You are not Christian by the Bibles
definition.  You can not show otherwise.

So you are doing a disservice unless you put in your profile that you
are not a Christian do not belive in God and am speaking the thoughts of
men.  JWs would probably have no issue with you then.

We do not abandon our families they abandon us.  An individual can
quitely slip away from being a JW with out being disfellowshiped. Many do
that including members of my extended family, and we still associate
with them because they are grandparents and part of our children and our
lives.

Here are some Watchtower quotes to show that we still must have an
obligation to disfellowshiped ones

"The same rule would apply to those who are in the relation of parent
and child or of child and parent. What natural obligation falls upon
them according to man's law and God's law the faithful parent or the
faithful child will comply with"

"The disfellowshiping of a member of one's relationship does not cancel
the natural flesh-and-blood relationship. For example,
disfellowshiping of itself would not break the marital tie. Hence, if a brother in the
flesh who is disallows visits with his family on the basis, not of
Christian unity, but of family relationship, then one would be entitled to
receive him with courtesy on that natural earthly basis, not, of
course, to have spiritual association with him and treat him as a member of
the congregation, but merely to discuss family relationship and other
mundane matters."

"But what if a close relative, such as a son or a parent who does not
live in the home, is disallows and subsequently wants to move back
there? The family could decide what to do depending on the situation.

15 For example, a disallows parent may be sick or no longer able to
care for himself financially or physically. The Christian children have a
Scriptural and moral obligation to assist. (1 Tim. 5:8)"

So Andrew please stop misrepresenting JWs based on your perception and
experiences.

If the things that you say had happened it is NOT because of the
organization but it is  the fault of the individuals BOTH JWs and their
families that have caused it.  Do not lump the whole in one basket because
of a few.  

Answer
Dear Andrew C,

> You do not have to be a spiritual leader for your views of
> the Bible to count.  In this matter your view of the Bible
> is extremely relevant.

As you wish.

> By your not accepting what the Bible says on this subject,
> then you are speaking from an unrelated point of view.  

The bible says nothing about mind control, so yes, what I say about mind control is unrelated to the bible.

> If you want to discusss "mind control" about any religion,
> you must present information that directly relates to that
> subject from what ever source that religious group
> uses.  

No I don't. If I want to discuss mind control about any religion, I must present information that directly relates to that subject from whatever source is well researched and well reasoned.

Whether the group under consideration uses any such source is absolutely irrelevant. In fact, no cult uses any well researched or well reasoned source on the subject of cult mind control, as such sources are incompatible with their methods, and therefore they abhor such sources, regardless of how well researched or well reasoned.

> By not accepting the Bible, or being willing to use it,
> you are rejecting the idea of a God.

I hear YOU saying this. God is not saying this. You are not God. Since the bible does not comment on cult mind control, it is not possible to use the bible meaningfully in a discussion of cult mind control.

> You ARE using deception to manipulate your readers by not
> giving true details. You give only half truths and out
> right false information.

The details can be manipulated. The truth isn't found only by analyzing the details. When an orchestrated system of deception is used to forge God's signature, the only way the truth can be found is through intuition. I don't trust your details because you have used them to deceive me for a lifetime. Through intuition and love demonstrated ONLY by non-Witnesses and God's direct guidance in my life, I escaped such manipulation by means of your very convoluted analysis of details.

Real people need heart, not your analysis. God does not work through details, he works through a groundswell of unstoppable love. The devil is in the details.

> For example when I said "Jws teach and encourage strong
> family ties no matter what the religious beliefs of the
> other members."
> You say the following "This is an outright lie. Your
> literature repeatedly justifies shunning between family
> members where one has been expelled because of not
> living up to your man-made interpretations"

This is correct. I stand by my statement.

> Down the page further I give examples form various
> Watchtowers that show that I am correct.

Nothing you stated gave meaningful evidence to support the argument you assert. I can give citations similar to yours directly from Watchtower literature showing that Witnesses really do justify shunning which divides families; yet those who are familiar with Witness practice do not need such citations, as the truth is self-evident to those who are awake.

The truth that Witnesses really do justify shunning, and this divides families, does not require supporting documentation; it's pretty well obvious to anyone that has experience with Witnesses.

I invite the reader to consider the meaning of the phrase "plausible deniability". Organizations that employ networks of spies for intelligence gathering because they believe they are engaged in an idealogical battle with the Devil and seek to manage the perceptions of the Devil-inspired masses write materials very carefully when they know such materials are publicly available.

Why would it be necessary to write a statement in a plausibly deniable way? So that if ever their contradictions and lies or even innocent mistakes are later discovered, they can deny that they ever made lies or mistakes.

Jehovah's Witnesses feel the need to deny their own errors because of the belief that God does not make mistakes, yet their organization is a direct instrument of God. Therefore, they must manage the perceptions of the masses in order to pretend they have not made mistakes, so as to maintain the charade that the unerring God speaks only through their organization. This is an example of how they forge God's signature.

> You are also wrong when you say. "Non-Witnesses do not
> shun. Only Witnesses do." What a misleading statement to
> say we are the only ones to shun  "We are not the only
> people that cut ties. There are several religious groups
> both claiming to be Christian and non Christian that
> cut ties.  Not only religious groups but ethnic groups
> will do the same thing.  Other religions include the
> Catholic Church, Anabaptists: Amish, Mennonites, and
> Hutterites, Judaism and Bahai

Excommunication in the Catholic Church has become so extraordinarily rare that it is reasonable to say (based on numerical frequency) it is no longer practiced. On the other hand, Witnesses expel 10,000 members every year, making it a common practice.

You have managed to cite a range of extremist organizations which supposedly shun, yet I only hear YOU speaking, not these other groups, and do not believe you can rightly speak for them.

Those who cut ties rather than seeking healing are advocating abandonment, not love. The world has outgrown the mindset you are defending.

MOST SIGNIFICANTLY, you have taken the argument out of context and misrepresented the meaning of the argument. Here was the original context...When I accused Witnesses of destroying families, you responded:
>> Have you ever considered that it is not the JWs teachings
>> of the Bible that disrupts families but it is the non JW
>> family members that cause the problem? It a very minority
>> of casses has the JW in the split family been the
>> problem.

...to which I said...

> It is Witnesses, not non-Witnesses who shun.

Therefore the context has nothing to do with whether other extremist organizations practice this antiquated abandonment anti-love mentality. Rather the context of our debate is who is at fault when a break in family ties occurs.

It is not the fault of the non-Witness family member who is being shunned that the broken family tie occurs. It is the fault of the antiquated anti-love abandonment ethic that you Witnesses advocate that the broken family tie occurs.

It is not the fault of the Jew who "wandered absent-mindedly into a Nazi incinerator" that he died. It is the fault of the Nazis who forced them.

It is deceptive of you to switch contexts and misrepresent my statement in an attempt to prove your group is not so isolated in this extreme behavior as it seems. It is exactly as isolated in this extreme behavior as it seems.

You are virtually alone in the world because you have misunderstood the meaning of the bible. God is love, and therefore abandonment is not possible for him. God is not capable of abandonment. Only judgemental people convinced of their own purity (moral superiority) who have no experience with unconditional love are capable of such abandonment.

> You also make this statement which you not substantiate "a
> way of life like you have SIMPLY MUST believe it is right,
> even where there is no evidence that it's right, even when
> there's abundant evidence that it's wrong,"  You can not
> provide any evidence that our way (the Bibles way, again
> you must use this book to prove your point) is wrong.  
> Our text book is the Bible.  We go by its standards not
> mans. Everything we teach is found in the Bible. If that
> makes us wrong so be it.  Now you prove that our standard
> contradict the Bible.

The burden of proof is upon he who makes the extraordinary claim. Your organization has claimed to be God's own organization, God's own mouthpiece, the unique channel of spiritual food from God, God's wife, etc., etc. These are VERY OUTRAGEOUS CLAIMS. Therefore the burden to prove such a claim is upon you.

You have repeatedly claimed you speak for God, yet you carry only the equivalent of God's forged signature. Stop forging God's signature. He did not appoint you.

Your way is not the bible's way. Your way is the Watchtower's way. Substitute "Watchtower" each place where you wrote "bible" above and your statement would be accurate.

This is the simple truth that all those who have experience with you already know. The evidence of my eyes is more important than any convoluted analysis of your theories.

There are enough people in the world who believe in God and respect the bible, yet find your way completely alien. That is significant evidence, and it comes without any convoluted reasoning subject to trickery.

I could cite my scriptures and you could cite yours, but in defense of what spirit? What attitude? You are defending shunning, abandonment, and outrageous claims.
____

Is not the underlying spirit and attitude this Jehovah's Witness seeks to "defend" not self-evidently ungodly? Let the reader decide.
____

You can play the bible as a fiddle to any tune you want, but people who listen to the God within them know by the sound of the tune all they need to know. They don't even need to hear your convoluted details to know whether God is with you.

God himself told me to leave your organization, and that is the only evidence I need.

You keep trying to "prove" everything from the bible. But there is no proof when it comes to spiritual matters. The fundamental reality is that people believe what they choose to believe about things that cannot be proven, and even some things that can.

I choose to believe that when the bible says "God is Love" that is gospel truth, and where it says "shun the evildoer" you must have misunderstood something or your bible translators must have had a hidden agenda to protect their dogmas. Like when they changed the bible from saying "God is within you" to "God is among you".

Where you can use social pressure to make people conform, you do. Where that doesn't work, you use your convoluted analysis to trick people. Where that doesn't work, you change the bible. Watchtower dogma is all that matters to you. God's love means nothing.

> I know you disagree with that.  By staying exclusively by
> the man made reasonings you are also under the mind
> control ideas of those men. Belive it or not.  

No one controls my social environment, and therefore no one can control me through social pressure nor threat of expulsion anymore like you once did. My mind is free to examine subjects from all sides, a manner of being you cannot even imagine. No one controls me ANYMORE. That is your way. God freed me from that.

Freedom is the way of the anti-cult researchers you critique. You critique freedom because you need to control the masses in order to maintain your controlling way of life. That is evil. May God forgive such evil.

> I prefer Gods ways not mans.  You, by what you say do
> not have time for Gods ways.  If you think I am wrong or
> if that statement is  a logical non-sequitur then defend
> yourself, give yourself some credibility.

You prefer Watchtower ways, and do not know God's ways. Defend myself against your outrageous claims and hatemongering? It's not necessary. Your claims are self-evident for what they are.

> You are so wrong about JWs and families.  If a child of a
> JW is put on the street simply because they were disallows
> shipped, the parents would also (or should be) disallows.
> We have a moral obligation to look after our families. If
> a family member is disfellowshiped ALL ties ARE NOT
> broken.  Most are but NOT ALL TIES. If a family member is
> in need physically because the are ill or have no home
> due to no fault of their own we are obligated to look
> after them. If we do spiritual ties are kept to a minimum.
> That is what we are taught.  

Taught by whom? By an organization that does not allow you to hear the other side of the story. You never even spoke to the ones who were accused and expelled to hear their side of the story. You are absolutely prohibited from doing so. All your views on this subject are the views that organization has allowed you to hear.

You don't even know how it really works, because you have never taken time to consider what is happening from the other side of the story. Your theories about how it is "supposed" to work all sound very neat and tidy; but in the real world, even elders have shadows like ego and id, and even the innocent get expelled, and end up on the street and alone at the most vulnerable time of their lives because of the mind games your organization advocates.

It is too dangerous for any man to have the absolute power your elders and other organizational leaders have.

I've worked with enough hundreds of expelled persons to know their side of the story. You have not heard from them at all. Yet you claim to know all that matters. Yours is the half truth, because yours is based on half the story.

God is love. His way is above your way. He does not abandon and judge as you do. You've got him all wrong.

> JWs do all in their power to maintain family ties.  

But it isn't "within your power" to maintain family ties when your organization has absolute power to erode family ties by prohibiting you from attending absolutely all the events your family sponsors because--one by one--each of those events has been denounced as "pagan" by your organization.

It isn't "within your power" to maintain family ties when your organization has absolute power to erode family ties by pressuring you to reduce association with flesh and blood based on an twisted interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:33.

Finally it isn't "within your power" to maintain family ties when your organization hatefully expels your family member and expects you to take sides with God against them, as if God hated your family member. God is not capable of hate. An organization that teaches what yours teaches is just tragic.

> Disfellowshiping is not meant to be a final outcome where
> there is no return.  

Yet in practice it is. Disfellowshipping always occurs because the member does not allow himself to be humiliated by elders, mere men, pretending to speak for God, dishonoring the God within each of us. It is when people come to their senses and recognize they do have proper personal boundaries that ELDERS DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO CROSS that they are disfellowshipped. This is always the ultimate reason for expulsion, "independent thinking", which is the Witness term for refusing to submit to humiliating treatment.

In order for them to come back AFTER EXPULSION, they would have to submit to humiliations even greater than you people practice PRIOR TO EXPULSION. You make it very difficult for anyone to come back without first subjecting themselves to the iron fisted totalitarian rule of men pretending to speak for God.

> Disfellowshiping is not a fear factor as you seem to
> portray.

It is a constant threat and constant fear in the mind of every Witness that they will not survive the holocaust your vengeful caricature of God will supposedly wreak upon the world at any moment, no matter how "faithful" they have been by your own internal definitions.

There is no point in time when a faithful Witness can know with confidence that they are saved and can enjoy the grace of God. Instead your organization encourages a constant neurosis in each member about whether he has done well enough, whether he needs to do better, in order to be saved at Armageddon. This OCCURS EVEN AMONG THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN THREATENED WITH EXPULSION.

When you consider that expulsion (even unjustly by men who have their own private agenda) means becoming an enemy of God, faithful Witnesses will do most anything to continue to tow the line and do what they're told in order to "prove" themselves loyal to the Watchtower Society, which is equated with loyalty to God.

It is every bit the fear factor I have painted, and that is how all cult organizations control their members, with the awful spectre of being separated from the monolithic and unique community which supposedly is the only one worth belonging to.

> It is a discipline factor that is used as a LAST
> RESORT in order to readjust someone one.

This is a lie. It is not done as discipline for the good of the expelled one. This is pretty language to cover up an ugly slaughterhouse.

You do it to protect the "purity" of the congregation. It does not do any good for the expelled one, and more often than not, the expelled one is treated in a way so excoriatingly that no human could be expected to "learn" from the experience.

And what gives you the RIGHT to readjust anyone in the name of God? Again this is one of many abusive behaviors you can justify ONLY because your organization has forged God's signature.

God never appointed your organization to represent him, and every time it claims authority to speak for God is a presumptuous abuse. You do not have the right to readjust others. Only God has that right, and when he readjusts us, he does so by means of love and bringing out the best in us, not hate and fear and witchhunts.

When you readjust, you teach fear and neurosis. God's ways are so far above your ways. I keep repeating this because it is the central lesson God taught me. You abandon while he cradles. You excoriate while he nourishes. You self-justify while he teaches forgiveness.

Men who claim to speak for God are selling something very dangerous.

> Why do we do that.  I know you do not want to talk
> theology but  ponder over these texts.  They are not
> theology but personal thinking and relationship issues
> that affected the lives of people that God wanted to
> follow him.  If you can not accept these then again I say
> you do not belive in God

One of the rare occasions God answered my prayers directly, it was to tell me to depart from your ways and move toward the people who exercise unconditional love. So no, I will not join you in "personal thinking and relationship issues" because this is simply your convoluted way of saying you want to be right. God already settled that question--done--sorry--you lost.

Why would I listen to those God told me to leave behind as supposed "experts" on the word of God? How ridiculous!

> We live by Bible principles.  That is what it means to be
> a Christian.

You live by Watchtower interpretations of bible principles, and Watchtower organizational policy that is completely detached from what is contained in the bible. That is what it means to be a Witness.

> You are not Christian by the Bibles definition.  You can
> not show otherwise.

I don't matter. That's only ego, remember? I carry no virtue, no special anything, have never claimed otherwise. Even when the lying politician says your house is on fire, you'd better check.

I'm a lying politician saying you do not have God's legitimate signature, and you've not proved otherwise. You can't show it because God never appointed you.

> So you are doing a disservice unless you put in your
> profile that you are not a Christian do not belive in God
> and am speaking the thoughts of men.  JWs would probably
> have no issue with you then.

This is an outright lie again. JW's take issue with anyone who undermines their power base or threatens their fragile worldview.

The character of the speaker as a litmus test of veracity is only something that matters under the Witness mindset. I'm not here to serve the Witness mindset. The people I serve don't care about that.

> We do not abandon our families they abandon us.  

Hitler says, "We do not kill Jews, they walk voluntarily into our incinerators".

> An individual can quitely slip away from being a JW with
> out being disfellowshiped.

Yes they can, if they're very careful about it. And that's what I always recommend to them when they come to me doubting and in pain.

But life isn't always so neat and tidy the way your worldview insists. When we're not completely in control and under absolute self-restraint. Life is messy sometimes.

That's an opportunity to show what we're made of. Witnesses show what they're made of by judging and abandoning people when they are struggling and uncertain, growing and questioning--even their own flesh and blood.

Only automatons expect life to always be neat and tidy, otherwise the hatchets come out.

> So Andrew please stop misrepresenting JWs based on your
> perception and experiences.

If all of you will, then I will too, deal?

Our experience is all we have, and is far more meaningful than theories. If my experience was a local anomaly, then it should have disappeared when I moved from one locality to another, which I did dozens of times to escape "local anomalies" because I could not bring myself to leave the organization for many years.

What conclusion am I left to draw from the fact that the same judgementalism and hatemongering is found in all localities everywhere? It comes from the top.

God showed me the reasonable conslusion is very simple: His ways are higher than yours. You do not speak for him; and I was foolish to ever believe otherwise.

Why did I not see the obvious? GOD NEVER APPOINTED YOU. Every time you claim otherwise, you are forging God's signature.

> If the things that you say had happened it is NOT because
> of the organization but it is  the fault of the
> individuals BOTH JWs and their families that have caused
> it. Do not lump the whole in one basket because of a few.

Notice how Andrew C. feels the need to hold the organization harmless at all costs, and always redirect blame for anything that goes wrong upon supposedly errant individuals. Yet those individuals are doing exactly as the organization trained them, and holding the organization harmless is not necessary because I am not accusing God. The Watchtower Society is not God nor an agent of God.

The error is with the organization who taught the policies of men as the word of God, not with the individuals who are mercilessly pressured into following them.

Those poor individuals' lives are a terrible drudge, without any form of celebration, treating life as a thing to be endured, which it really does become due to their approach to life. Day in day out, month in month out, year in year out, always supposedly "just around the corner", the rescue they hope for never comes.

What is their hope? That someday God will kill the rest of the world in order to rescue them from their self-imposed hell.

God does offer rescue and healing, but not in the hateful way they have been predicting for 130 years now. People who want to find healing and discover God's love have to abandon their self-imposed hell.

Best wishes,
AndrewXJW

PS: God is love.