Dragon Ball, DB Z, DB GT/Dance fusion at base and SSJ level - reply question
QUESTION: Hi i just wanted to start with saying i enjoyed your debate in kanzenshuu with RandomGuy.
Anyway my questions are;
1. Is there any evidence to suggest that if trunks and goten fused as ssj1 will be stronger than gotenks ssj1 (fused from based then transform)?
Obviously two ssj4's fused together resulted in ssj4 gogeta which over powered omega shenron and ssj3 gotenks is not a genuine ssj3...meaning both trunks and goten only achieved ssj1 which is around #17 level + - and i think it was the result or power from the fusion that allowed gotenks to transform into ssj3.
I asked this because some people claim base vegetto is the same as goegta ssj3.
I do agree with that no matter what formula used for the potara earrings and fusion dance, vegetto will always come out on top by a big margin, but not base ---> ssj3 gogeta.
I guess my 2nd question is;
If you had to make a guess what power ranking would you give super vegetto, base vegetto and ssj1 gogeta and any comparing to super buuhan? etc....
I personally think;
*notes ssj in front means two actual ssj3 or 4 and ssj at the back means the character transform into that level*
ssj1 gogeta / base vegetto / super boohan
base gogeta + - mystic gohan
ANSWER: 1) Without knowing the exact formulas for the fusion dance, it's hard to say if transforming, then fusing would produce a stronger fighter than fusing, then transforming would, but logically speaking it shouldn't. Piccolo, having seen the boys transform and then fuse, would have a good idea how powerful Ssj Gotenks would be in proportion to base Goten and Trunks, so since he didn't comment on Ssj Gotenks in the Room of Spirit and Time being weaker than he thought they should be, he must have not noticed any difference in the proportional battle power increase.
I would say that, even though neither Goten nor Trunks were able to transform into Super Saiya-jin 3 on their own, that you shouldn't really say that Ssj3 Gotenks isn't a true Ssj3. There's no reason to believe that he didn't have all the same multipliers with his forms as a normal Super Saiya-jin 3 would, and since Goku is the only other one to reach the form in the canon universe, who's to say that Gotenks' isn't natural?
While I do feel that Vegetto is indeed stronger than Gogeta in the same form, I don't feel that he's so vastly stronger than Gogeta that Ssj3 Gogeta would be weaker than base form Vegetto. That'd put the Potara fusions at over 400 times as strong as the Fusion Dance, and while I do say that the Potaras are stronger, I don't think they're that much stronger.
2) Taking into account that I don't feel that transforming and fusing makes them stronger than fusing and then transforming (from what I mentioned above), I feel your list is correct for the most part. However, I will say that contrary to what is shown in the anime, I don't feel that base Vegetto is on par with Gohan Buu. In the manga, there is no fight between base Vegetto and Buu, as he transforms immediately after the two fuse. This suggests that Toriyama envisioned that Vegetto, without transforming, likely either wasn't stronger than Gohan Buu, or if he was, the gap was so small that he wouldn't have any advantage in fighting him.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
Thanks for the previous response.
Yes, I do accept that Gotenks SSJ3 is a legit SSJ3, but in the sense it was the power of the fusion that allowed him to transform = Gotenks being the SSJ3, not Trunks nor Goten.
Q: Do you agree with this math?
*I am only going to use the saiyans power levels from the frieza sage because the power levels are official even though logically speaking during the cell saga and boo saga all the saiyans base powers and ssj powers should have increased dramatically.*
For argument sake let's agree on the fact that both Trunks and Goten SSJ1 levels are 150,000,000 with Trunks a little higher due to him being older (but with dance fusion it doesn't matter due to Goten being weaker). Since we know their SSJ1 levels, the base level should be divide by 50 which results in 3,000,000.
So base levels is 3,000,000
SSJ3 levels is base x400 = 1,200,000,000
fusion a: Both trunks and goten only achieved ssj1 level which is around #17 + or -
3,000,000 + 3,000,000 = 6,000,000 (or whatever the formula is for fusion dance). If gotenks wants to transform into ssj3, the base form would be 6,000,000 x400 which results in the same power level as ssj3
fusion b: Both trunks and goten achieved ssj3 on their own
1,200,000,000 + 1,200,000,000 = 2,400,000,000 as Gotenks
The mistake i made was thinking fusion b would have a higher power due to the fact it started off with ssj3 power and maybe it could go even higher just like how gotenks achieved ssj3 without any of them (trunks and goten) reaching ssj2 or ssj3.
Anyway your conclusion that and with maths supported was correct all along.
Well, the Daizenshuu and GT Files entries for Gotenks and Gogeta indicate that the fusion dance makes the fusion many "tens of times" stronger than the individuals fusing, but without knowing how many tens of times there's no way of coming up with a solid formula for it. However, going just by how you put it out, I agree with it working like that, and it accurately shows that Gotenks would have the same battle power no matter how he was formed. Using your numbers:
3,000,000 + 3,000,000 = 6,000,000 x 400 = 2,400,000,000
1,200,000,000 + 1,200,000,000 = 2,400,000,000
Even if you assume that maybe there's a 50x multiplier to the battle power after fusing, the results would still be the same.
(3,000,000 + 3,000,000)x50 = 30,000,000 x 400 = 12,000,000,000
(1,200,000,000 + 1,200,000,000)x50 = 12,000,000,000
Gotenks' strength is limited by the boys. He wouldn't be able to increase his battle power past the amount designated by their strength by simply powering up, so going by the numbers I gave out with the 50x multiplier tacked on, Gotenks wouldn't be able to exceed 30,000,000 in his base form by simply powering up or anything. That would be his maximum limit with the boys still at 3,000,000. Now, if Gotenks trained and increased his battle power, that would in turn increase the strength of the boys' base forms as well. If he trained and reached 40,000,000, that would result in the boys' base battle powers increasing to 4,000,000.