Dragon Ball, DB Z, DB GT/If the boost is real, why did Gohan doubt the power increase himself in the viz?
QUESTION: Gohan in the viz says.
Context: after the z-sword breaks.
Gohan: "i guess its just overrated". "i got a good workout, maybe that was the point?"
Kaioshin: "that must be it. that's the power. Yes.. if you gain so much strength, you'll be even stronger once you turn into a super saiyan"
Old Kai: you're wrong!
Goku: Can this power really help us beat Buu? See? A flirting can save the universe.
Why would Gohan feel the z sword is overrated if he increased that much? Overrated and increased don't together.
Also, what does Piccolos confidence in Gotenks then later saying we have no hope means? Off course Gotenks post-rosat increased, but the amount is given by Piccolo, right? If Piccolo then withdraws his previous statement, where does it leave Gotenks?
ANSWER: 1) He thought the sword itself was exaggerated in terms of being an all-powerful weapon capable of defeating Buu. Up to that point, it was clear that everyone (him, Kaioushin, etc) thought that the weapon itself was a powerful weapon, hence their wanting to test its cutting power with the block of Kacchin steel. That's why he wondered if the strength he gained was what the legend behind it was really about, and not that the weapon itself was some unstoppable blade.
Here's the dialogue exchange in the original manga regarding Gohan saying that it was "overrated".
Kaioushin: “Th-th-this can’t be…Th-the Z Sword…”
Kibito: “The str-strongest of swords…”
Goku: “Hey, this is ‘cause you told us to test it out on something so hard…”
Kaioushin: “B-but it’s said that whoever holds it has the greatest power in the world…”
Kibito: “Th-the legendary sword of this sacred region…”
Gohan: “Looks like the legend was a little exaggerated…”
As you can see, both Kaioushin and Kibito (Kibito in particular) act as if the power comes from the sword itself, so Gohan's reaction to it breaking is that he felt that maybe the sword itself just isn't what the legend made it out to be.
2) Piccolo doesn't exactly withdraw his statement. While he does indeed go from being hopeful to thinking that the situation was hopeless, that could simply be a matter of Buu's strength being far higher than he realized rather than Gotenks not being as strong as he initially thought. Since it wouldn't make any sense at all for Piccolo to initially sense they were insanely powerful, only for them not to be, it would make far more sense for his sudden lack of confidence in their strength to be due to Buu just being far stronger than he initially thought he was (and that be the explanation to why Buu took the hit so well).
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: 1)Gohan was pretty clear saying the sword is overrated. At that time Kaioshin told Gohan it was the sword that grants great power to defeat Buu, so if Gohan really did increase, why would Toriyama have used "overrated" and "increase" in the same panel? For example if Gohan was weaker before the hours of swinging the sword, then if Gohan felt he increased, he wouldn't question the sword gain and call it overrated because Gohan increased. Plus if you add old kai saying you're wrong in the next panel and then Goku was willing to risk old kai's ability to defeat fat buu for a kiss from bulma.
Gohan in the jap translation said he just increased his "arm muscles". Has toriyama ever used arm strength in the entire 42 volumes to indicate someone's strength?
2) Buu stood there and allowed Gotenks to whale on him with no sign of doing any damage. this is where Piccolo retracted and said "we have no hope"
ANSWER: 1) The way Gohan comes up with the notion that his power increase might have been what the legend was actually about suggests that, until the sword broke, he hadn't even considered his own strength as being what the Z Sword legend was describing. Like with Kaioushin and Kibito, he seemed to have all his faith solely in the sword itself (partially due to how hyped up Kaioushin and Kibito made it), and only once it broke did he put any consideration into it being something apart from the sword's own "invincibility".
Given Kaioushin and Kibito's reactions to the idea that maybe it was the strength Gohan received from the training, as well as Kibito's initial comment that the sword itself would be enough to defeat Buu, it's clear that the idea of the training increasing Gohan's strength wasn't what they had initially had thought the legend was about.
Toriyama has never used arm strength as a representation of overall power boost before then.
2) I do know that he mentions that, but as said, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's retracting his initial statement about Gotenks' power. It's possible that Buu's strength ended up being far higher than he initially had imagined, so when he initially thought that Gotenks in his base form was enough to defeat Buu (when his earlier Ssj form couldn't), when Gotenks actually put that strength to the test against it just ended up not being enough.
For example (just using these # as a reference, and not an actual scale).
Ssj Gotenks (pre-Room): 10
Buu (Piccolo's estimate): 20
Base Gotenks (post-Room): 22
Buu (actual amount): 50
This leaves Piccolo's early assessment to be correct, in that he thought base Gotenks would stand a chance where Ssj Gotenks couldn't, and the situation still be hopeless once he sees that base Gotenks' power couldn't hurt Buu.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
The strongest sword to have reached the Kaioshin Realm. It is told that whoever pulls it out will obtain tremendous power. Though countless Kaioshin accepted this challenge and could not pull it out, it was pulled out by Gohan. The sword's body is absurdly heavy. It was originally thought that the Z Sword was a sword that was very good at cutting. However, by "obtain tremendous power", it was meant that the person who pulled it out would be powered up by the Kaioshin sealed within the sword.
^ you combine this with words like "overrated" and "you're wrong!" and then Goku wanting old Kai to train Gohan to defeat Fat Buu.
What kind of increase z-sword Gohan had if Toriyama didn't properly mentions where as before he usually always mentions the increase i.e Future Trunks fighting future Cell where Cell comments on the increase or Piccolo coming out of the rosat and Goku says he def increased.
2.a: Piccolo already sensed Evil Buu and says Evil Buu has increased.
That means Evil Buu > Fat Buu.
2.b: Piccolo tells the boys to go in the rosat and train.
That means Evil Buu > Ssj1 Pre-RoSat Gotenks.
2.c: Goten suggest to use Ssj3 against Evil Buu, Trunks assumes wrongly that he thinks base Gotenks can defeat Evil Buu.
That means in Trunks mind base Post-RoSat Gotenks > Evil Buu.
2.d: Piccolo enters the RoSat and watches the boys perform fusion and is hopeful after sensing base Post-RoSat Gotenks.
That means Post-RoSat Gotenks >~= Evil Buu > Ssj1 Pre-RoSat Gotenks.
2.e: Evil Buu stands there and allows Gotenks to attack him. After witnessing the one sided fight, Piccolo says "we have no hope". After he watches Ssj1 Post-RoSat gets owned Piccolo tells everyone Buu is just too strong.
That means Evil Buu > Ssj1 Post-RoSat Gotenks and base Gotenks.
There's no evidence of Evil Buu increased during the fight and he has no motivation to increase since he just stood there allowing Gotenks to attack in which Gotenks caused absolutely no damage to Buu which is why Piccolo was shocked and said there have no hope. Buu ki is like a lie, yes, but all aspects someone has noticed an increase i.e. Goku when fighting with Vegeta and Gohan when he tried to destroyed cocoon. Base Gotenks has already proven he's cocky like with Fat Buu where he got a swollen eye.
Post-RoSat Gotenks definitely increased, but the amount he increased was definitely retracted from the same person that said it.
What do you think was Toriyama's mind when writing this chapter?
1) We have seen instances before of someone getting significantly stronger through training of some fasion and not knowing about it until after they were done. For example, when Goku was trying to get the Super Holy Water from Karin, his power increased by "several times" what it was due to his constant struggle to acquire the jug from Karin. However, until it was pointed out to him, Goku didn't realize the strength increase and all, as his full expectation on getting more powerful was be from drinking the water itself.
The situation with Gohan and the Z Sword is essentially the exact same thing. His increase could have been considerable, but given that his and everyone else's attention was focused on the Z Sword itself being the focus of the legend, and not the possibility of the training with the sword being the meaning of the legend, they didn't notice or ignored Gohan's strength increase.
It was only when the "invincible" and "indestructible" Z Sword was snapped so quickly and effortlessly did Gohan realize that there must have been something else to the legend. Gohan's "exaggeration" comment is strictly about the sword itself, not about his increase at all, as he hadn't even considered or really noticed it until after the sword broke.
What really matters as far as determining Gohan's increase is Goku's statement on the matter. Goku not being sure if Gohan's strength had become high enough to beat Fat Buu would essentially indicate that he doesn't think that Gohan's Ssj2 strength had surpassed his (Goku's) Ssj3 strength. Gohan could very well have been stronger than Goku was in terms of respective forms (Gohan's base vs. Goku's base, Gohan's Ssj vs. Goku's Ssj, etc)
2) The problem with assuming that Piccolo's "may be hopeless" statement is a retraction of his belief of how powerful Gotenks is would suggest some huge and sudden drop in power in a span of a few seconds for Gotenks. Piccolo's initial comment was specifically about Gotenks' power and his belief that Gotenks might be able to do something with Buu now, so for him to exclaim that it "may be hopeless" later would mean just one of two things. Either:
a) Piccolo initially sensed huge power in Gotenks to make him believe that he could beat Buu, something that he said Ssj Gotenks (pre-training) couldn't do, only for him to suddenly sense a considerable drop in Gotenks' power for absolutely no reason.
b) Piccolo sensed the power increase from Gotenks base form that made him believe he could beat Buu, but when Buu remained unfazed by Gotenks' blow, Piccolo realized that Buu's power was just that much greater than he believed, and thus Gotenks' gain wasn't sufficient enough, despite being so powerful.
Given that it makes no logical sense for Gotenks to have some sudden drop in power, it's more than likely that Piccolo just didn't have a clear grasp of Buu's actual power, so when he sensed Gotenks' increased strength in comparison to where his original Ssj battle power was, he thought Gotenks would be enough.
It makes for a simpler and more straightforward explanation than trying to explain Gotenks having some sudden dip in power.