Expert: Goku-Sama - 6/23/2006

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I know I already asked this question, but many people, including myself, do not think that Vegeta had to use the brute ray again to transform into ssj4. In GT, when goku goes ssj4 again he just powers up like any of the other ssj forms. It never said that after the first transformation that you need your tail, because they do not need blutz waves anymore(tails aborb blutz waves). What is your professional opinion?

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Well I know that the tail is needed to go SSJ4 because that form is a derivitive of the Golden Oozaru form. And we all know that to go Oozaru you need to have your tail and you need to look at a full planetary body.

When Goku goes ssj4 he just powers up to ssj4, not needing the tail for absorbing blutz waves anymore. Vegeta didn't say he couldn't go ssj4 due to the ray getting broken, I have the episode, and here is what is said: "Vegeta why do you have to use Bulma's machine, can't you go ssj4 on your own by now?" - Goku. "Shut up, I could ask you the same question right now, so don't get on me you little runt!" - Vegeta. The reason that he needed the brute ray was to restore his energy, because Goku and him were out of energy from fighting the one star dragon (Omega Shenron/Syn).

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The reason I feel that the tail is definately needed is because remember that episode where the old kai says he can give goku the training needed to beat bebi and all that? He uses those huge pincers to pull out goku's tail remember? and neither of them knows WHY he did this until goku goes into Golden Oozaru form and then from there into SSJ4 form.

I was just watching episode 55, and Bulma said that Goku's "initial (first) transformation" was triggered by the blutz waves reflecting off earth, and she also said that Vegeta could also transform like Goku, if his body was flooded with blutz waves. Meaning, to transform after that, he would not need the blutz waves (tail for absorbing them). It also states that the reason Vegeta never attained the form was because he was not strong enough and because Bebi was inside him, but now he is, as Bulma states (how could he transform if he was not strong enough). Thus proving that the tail is needed only for the FIRST transformation, it never says/shows anything about needing blutz waves anymore. What do you think?

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I dont know that this is something that we could ever get a definitive answer on. DB universe is full of little holes in logic like this one. I think your right about not needing the tail anymore after the first time, but I think you are incorrect when you say that Vegeta (without the presence of bebi of course) is able to go SSJ4 by himself. He would still need the bluitz wave ray gun to go ssj4.

Thanks! This information has helped out a lot. The reason I thought that Vegeta was strong enough, was because in episode 55 Bulma says that she knows he is strong enough now, but need to get the "conditions" right for him - tail, Blutz waves, & Oozaru forms. The part that confuses me is why would he need the Blutz waves again? The reason he asked Bulma to use them the 2nd time was to restore his energy. So what further purpose would they have?


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I think your right. The only reason after the first time would probably be to restore his failing energy reserves.

Exactly! So, do you agree that Vegeta was strong enough to go ssj4 without the brute ray & his tail?

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Honestly? No I don't, but your right about the use of the blutz wave generator the second time. It was to restore goku and vegeta's failing energy reserves. But I have always been a bigger fan of Goku then Vegeta. And truth be told, Goku has ALWAYS been portrayed as the stronger of the two. The only time vegeta was close to beating goku was when he was Majin vegeta, and even then he still couldnt beat goku without tricking him.

As you could probablly tell, I am a HUGE Vegeta fan - he is my alltime favorite character in the entire DB Universe. Anyway, at the end of GT Vegeta was at least equal with Goku, because they both could go ssj4 and Goku borrowed Trunks, Gohans, and Gotens ssj energy: and his power skyrocketed past his normal level - unknown if he kept the power or went back to normal power. Vegeta was equal to his power as soon as he first achieved the form, so really his "normal" power was higher than that of Goku and even at his maximum charge he was only a little stronger than Vegeta. Why don't you agree, it doesn't matter if Goku is portrayed as the strongest character, because Vegeta could still go ssj4 without the ray, right?

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Don't get me wrong, I like Vegeta because of his bad ass attitude, and because in the later DBZ eps, is very strong, and very dependable for once. But tell me this. Does he EVER achieve SSJ4 without some sort of aid from Bulma (in other words, using only his own power)? Unless the answer is YES, we are just speculating if he could even do it. And that makes him weaker then Goku.