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2HP Furnas Motor
2HP Furnas Motor  
switch box
switch box  
QUESTION: I have a Sears Belsaw 12" Planer with a 2HP Furnas Motor and manual starter.I need 230V wiring advice. Currently the wires out of the motor are-black, yellow white to a black wire & red,orange,blue to a white wire. The singe line diagram on the motor shows this as 115V L1 & L2. The white wire feeds to the left screw on top of the switch box screw(w/no label) The black wire to the right screw labeled R2. the wires come out of the switch box bottom left screw and black on bottom right screw labeled T2 out of the box comes a cord with a 115 end plugged into an extension wire that came with the planer with a 230v end. Looks like a replaced end.I wired the 230 V receptacle with one side white the other side black back to a 15A 2 pole double breaker, Turned it on . It ran then tripped the breaker.I put in a 20A breaker & nothing. Another wiring diagram on the motor shows to Blue to L1 & Red, Orange, White to INS.?????-yellow & black to L2 this is for 230V/. AMPs are 115=22.8 & 230=11.4  At the bottom of the switch box there is one screw left & Right out front and 1 each side 1/2" back??? Please help me wire for 230 V

ANSWER: Del,


Here is what your found:

"Another wiring diagram on the motor shows to Blue to L1 & Red, Orange, White to INS.?????-yellow & black to L2 this is for 230V/."

The above connection has to be series as it only has one motor lead to line,  so for a dual voltage motor  you need one for high voltage,  and two or   TWICE   whatever the high is,   to handle the current on low,    

What it means is    Blue motor lead to 220 volt line,  red,orange white are electrically connected and isolated,    yellow and black go to the second 220/230 volt line. [220, 230, 240, are all referring to the same thing,  double the voltage of the low side be it 115, 120, whatever,   so it is not empirical   it is nominal,     don't give it a thought,  unless you are tripping on a particular voltage,   


Here is what happens on rare occasions and why the running current should be known,    

Your utility supplies you 246 volts,   your motor is older and rated 110/220   long way from 220 to 246,  but the kicker is  motors being such odd devices,  some LIKE higher voltages than rated,  and some like LOWER,  but the running current measured by a clamp on amp meter will tell you exactly where you are at,       older motors seem to prefer  lower voltages,  newer higher,  but not all the time,        it is a consideration, but nothing you can do about it,  but be aware,      maybe lighten the load, if possible  but  it often confuses users with  220. 230. 240    they all mean the high side of  the  110/115/120  low side   


Let me know how you get along,  

That should get your motor running,  but you are trying to start an 11 amp motor on a 15 map breaker,  you are right there,  as far as in rush,     you say changing to a 20 amp breaker nothing?????????????????????

Two issues still not sure about,     what does changing the breaker and nothing    mean?


If you somehow have the motor connected for 115,   it is rated at 22 almost 23 amps,  a breaker is not going to hold the inrush,     not on a 20 amp,  probably not on a 25 amp,  and you have to consider wire size,   the breaker protects the wire,  it is crap protection for a motor, and a motor starter is the way to go with fused protection if possible.


The photo named 2HP Furnas Motor,  shows  two power supply wires connected to every single motor lead  out of the motor,  that HAS TO BE LOW VOLTAGE  as a connection,   every thing is to line,      you need to series the motor,  with the sentence written above,   

Rotation,   if reversible,   it may or may not be,  but if so, it will say somewhere  swap x with x to change rotation,


First prove you can run the motor connected for high voltage or 220,   once you prove that can be done, if you can find an amp meter clamp on it would be nice to know what the running current is,    pay attention to your wire size and distance for volt drops,   


Once the motor is running on 220 in the correct direction then wire your switch up,   don't try and get you head around all this at once,   get your motor running,   then the switch should be a fairly simple connection,  where it says run motor lead or power lead,    whenever it calls for a motor lead,   it is either one motor lead or two or three  whatever goes to line,  in your case one motor lead is to one side of 220 and two motor leads are to the other side of the 220 supply   both motor leads are considered one,      


It appears you are trying to get all this in one swoop,   just back up,  go slow,  the last thing that bothered me was   "another wiring diagram"  what does that mean?    I see where they plastered stickers all over,     and made a big deal on the 115 sticker,    I guess that is what you are referring to,     as "another wiring diagram"


Try the 2120 connection and let me know how you get along,  


MY shop is MEAR Services in Kansas City,      our repair email is repair@mearservice.com   and our repair phone number is 816-650-4030

   

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

Motor label
Motor label  
QUESTION: The other wiring diagram i am referring to sits beside the 115 diagram on the motor plate, upper right hand corner. Those 2-diagrams show the color leads from the motor for 115V & right diagram 230V which is the blue to L1, red orange white to Ins, whatever that is (I guess Isolated) as you say and finally yellow & black to L2 see attached pic and enlarge it to focus in on the right diagram.
When I stated I changed the 220 breaker from 15A to 20A nothing it means I pushed the switch button and nothing at all happened. It didn't run, hum or nothing. I checked the 20A breaker to see if it tripped and it didn't . I flipped it off then on. Same thing motor did nothing.I did not smell any burning or smoke. The wire to the receptacle is 12/2 and approx. 35' long. It runs my 220 baseboard heater fine
Are you suggesting I directly tie the motor leads as Blue to L1 to one wire from the 220/115A breaker and the L2 (yellow & black to the other wire from the breaker directly to the 12/2 wire? To me that would be 115V to each wire. Then check the running voltage if the motor will run?????

ANSWER: Del, I take it it worked and you can reverse the motor if needed,   your kind words were very much appreciated but a bit more than I deserved,    but again it was very kind of you to take the time,      if you ever have a problem on anything,  please feel free to look me up.

So many have problems with electric motors and not being an advocate of DYI electrical just because of the possible dangers,  I have to go a bit overboard about the warnings of wire size and checking everything you can JUST IN CASE something should happen,  

Believe me the last thing I expected to see at 8AM  was my house filled with smoke,  panic, and the ongoing trials and problems down the road,     

Even "experts" have house fires, you cannot possibly protect, or test everything,  but you can check the obvious,  make sure your smoke detectors work,   all this battery changing this time of year should not be ignored,   and each tester should be tested with the test button,    

One of the last things you ever want in your life is fire out of control,   the short in the coffee maker cord,  was plugged into a GFCI outlet, and I had a Utility installed surge protector installed,   which pretty much prevents hopefully surges that come from the outside,  inside,  breakers are too slow in many cases where a direct short occurs.

So if anyone gets anything from this,  check your detectors,  do all you can to prevent any possible fire source which of course we did,  and still we suffered from this horrific event,  insurance is cancelled or rather non renewed,   it is nearly impossible to obtain insurance once you have a fire claim,     if you do you will pay like me 6 to 7 times the amount,  5 times the deductible over an event I had no way of predicting or stopping,  

The catch 22 on unplugging is the wear and tear on the cord even more,  plus it weakens the tension on the outlet clamps,  so the plug does not fit as tight, possibly causing another problem,       

It cost me thousands and thousands of dollars,  out of my home for nearly a year,  loss of beloved pet,  and the paper and time is incredible      so, if you can afford an electrician to do a look over of your electrical system,  or your fire department offers a walk though with advice on things they see,    take advantage,     

Again thank you so much for the kind words,  I do this to help, and was asked why I do not turn on ratings,    because I am not doing this for ratings,  it is nice to hear such kind and appreciative words,  but my real goal is to help,   I was blessed with the ability to understand a subject and if that knowledge is of help,   glad to share it,   

Thank you again and you are right  about.com does this for nothing,  it is their way of paying forward to society by footing the huge bill to hold this site out there,  manage the experts, and the questions,     they are the real heros here,  not me,      

Again  any other problems of any kind,  let me know,

William Babbitt   

President MEAR Servicee Inc  

Buckner Missouri,  64016








No matter what program I use I cannot get a clear look at the high voltage connection, but you can see it and that is good enough,        yes   it takes a double breaker to get 220 volt, and yes it is 115 to GROUND on each leg,  but between them is 230 volts,   that is what the motor wants to see,      you use the term   220/115A breaker, A is for amps,   220/115 is volts  don't get confused by that,  


most standard residential breakers,  for example an electric stove,  will have a double breaker,  that is what you need to get 220 to the motor,  


   unlike an appliance,  [this confuses everyone because of the way they write codes]  it used to be for a 220 stove, you would use a double breaker, three wire feed,   one side to one post, the other to the other power post, and then neutral to the center post,  this divided the power up at the stove,  where you could have 220 baking elements and neutral was the ground,   what they found was in case of a short circuit  the neutral connection by itself did not deal with the seriously high short circuit current, so they mandated an individual chassis ground wire,      


 but motors do not care about anything but the power LINE TO LINE it is supplied with, recently as you know,  with new appliances required to have FOUR wires,  two hots  each  115 to ground, but between them  220 or 230 volts or somewhere in that area,  no utility is perfect on the 115  it might be 114  or 119  but that is just tolerance from the nominal voltage,   not uncommon to see  122 volts on low and 244 volts on high,   same thing as back in time when everything was  110/220   they have just raised the nominal voltage value,

  nothing to be concerned with,  except when you have an old device rated  110/220  and your utility is supplying 123 and 246,  it might be just a bit to much voltage for an older device,  most can take   10% plus or minus,    but there are cases where the tolerance is just not there and when 123 or 120 or whatever your voltage is in your home, is supplied to a 110 device it falls of the knee of the curve, and the current sky rockets,     but fairly rare,


I run a line conditioner with a constant voltage meter, my voltage on the low side right now is  exactly 115,  but later in the day it WILL CHANGE,  it will show 117, up to as high as 124  on occasion,  it is just a range not an empirical value   that is a constant,     most have no idea their voltage fluctuates all over the board,    but by law they are SUPPOSED TO BE within 10% of the local nominal voltage,   and it changes from one area or the country to others,       


Yes   red, orange and white,   are tying the run windings in series for high voltage, and yes they are electrically connected and taped off {INS = Insulated once connected],       then your lines are to blue from the motor,and yellow and black to the other,  

    it also says to reverse  swap  red and black?  cannot quite make that out either,  but it makes sense,    picture viewer refuses to open the photo saying it is corrupt, and could be,  it happens down these email attachments all the time,   but you are able to read it right there,     

to run the motor on low voltage or in this case low is 115 or 120 or whatever the utility supplies,   you need the motor in parallel,  because half the voltage is twice the current,  and the wire size needs to handle the current,      so you will see at least 2 motor leads per 115 line when using a single 115 breaker,    

The reason  there is blue on one line for high and two on the other is the start winding,   the start winding is at 115 volts   so they gang two run winding ends together and one end of the start,     that is your gang of three and the poor description of "to INS"    Pretty hard to understand  does INS mean insulated or isolated,     does it mean  insulated because there is an "N"   or does it mean insulated individually or together?

This is what goes through the mind of users,  and I see why,  this is a common question due to assumptions from the manufacture,  but you hit it right on the nail,   it means exactly; insulated AFTER THEY ARE ELECTRICALLY CONNECTED,       

By connecting three wires  you put the run windings in series [high voltage]  and one start end,  right in the middle of the two runs,  where the voltage is 115, then the other end is put to line    that puts 220 to the runs, and 115 to the start, by using the center tap of the two run windings in series      

low voltage they put all of the runs in parallel,  making them half the high voltage and putting the start across the 115 single pole breaker or supply,

Below helps explain,  I don't like it a lot because they use GREEN, but it is a clear diagram,  it is an older example,  but it shows how they use parallel and series to get dual voltage      

GREEN now days should be a dedicated chassis ground,  period,    not a color on a motor lead,  but for an example it is pretty good:


http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/transformers-phase-converters-vfd/how-decip

Here is another connection diagram showing the series and parallel connections using numbers versus colors,    if you assigned the correct colors to numbers  it would be the same thing,  numbers are preferable to colors as colors fade,  people are color blind to some degree in some shades,  so numbers are much better:   


http://www.naemotors.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Single-Phase1.pdf

But yes you need a double breaker,  each line will be 115 to ground but 230  line to line,   that is what the motor cares about,    as far as ground,  it should be a separate ground to the frame only   HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OPERATION OF THE MOTOR,     it is there for protection only,

So try this,   wire up a double breaker to your two wires,  and measure between them   you will have high  220/230  between them,      

You will need a double pole breaker for 220 or high,  or a single pole for 115 or low,    here is a good explanation of how that is done and why:

http://www.ehow.com/how_5087567_install-volt-electrical-circuit-breakers.html

I am not sure what happened when you changed out the breaker from 15 to 20 amps,  but the rating has nothing to do with the poles,    you can have a single pole breaker rated at 15 or 20 amps, and  you can have a double pole breaker rated 15 or 20 amps,    these are current ratings   nothing to do with getting  voltage to the device,    one is amps,   the other voltage,    

Hope this clears this up, I know it is confusing as hell,  manufacturers assume we all understand their abbreviated nomenclature,    

But YES  you need a double pole breaker  one hot for each pole,   and the number 12 should be large enough to handle the current, but you need to double check the rated CURRENT   and distance to know if the 12 is large enough,    but if the 12 wire handled the higher 115 volt current,  the 230 is going to be half,  so it should be fine, but check anyway,,

I just had a coffee maker cord short out,   I say just,  it was last February, the cord simply shorted, nothing could be done to test, it was not taped or worn, it just shorted,  I spent a year from hell and it is not done yet,    I made it out, lost our family pet, so it could have been much worse but I will be fighting this for years,     so when I say double check,   check to the best of your ability that the wire size and length is adequate,   there are charts all over the internet,  and because each city or township or whatever have their own rules,   you need to check the general sizes and then make sure you are OK with local codes,   

When a fire occurs the fire chief looks for a cause, and then they send a special investigator,   who is really an arson investigator to look at everything they can look at, and if they find one thing,   then it becomes contributory negligence,     did not happen to me,   but I am telling you and anyone who reads this,   check what you can check, dispose of any taped cords, or small extension cords,      and actually it is worth the money to have a professional electrician look over your home, they will check the ground rod, breakers, things most would not thing of,,        

It would not have helped me,  he or she would have went right by the coffee maker,  no way to tell the cheap ass cord would short out,    


You are using a starter for the motor a good thing,   if it has fuses even better, because breakers are slow to react,   especially for motors,      never use a breaker as a switch,  for anything,    

Any other questions let me know,    until we understand each other,  we will get this correct,  

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

Planer Cords
Planer Cords  

Receptacle
Receptacle  
QUESTION: OK. I think I got all of that. I will wire the motor leads for the High Voltage 220/230 with the 15 Amp double breaker. So pleas answer this question- Are you suggesting that I tie the 12/2 wire directly to do changed leads? If so how do I keep from cutting the motor on if I cut the breaker on to measure the Running voltage. The motor is not within site of the breaker, not a good idea. OR should I change the leads for high voltage and wire the 12/2 to the switch box (Its a manual switch box) then push the on button? Also if I were to do this where does the white and black leads from the motor connect on the top of the switch box? Leave as shown or change it. Also look at the new picture showing the short cord 115 plug end coming out out the switch box and the long cord it plugs into and the 220 plug end on that. On the other picture you will see the receptacle I bought and wired to plug the long cord in. If I wire this motor as high voltage (220/230) what do I do with the short cord plug end which is a 115 V end.
Thanks

Answer
I see you concerns, and confusion with this new photo,        

"OR should I change the leads for high voltage and wire the 12/2 to the switch box (Its a manual switch box) then push the on button?"

It looks like a manual switch box,   and again I see your confusion,

"the new picture showing the short cord 115 plug end coming out out the switch box and the long cord it plugs into and the 220 plug end on that."


Obviously someone took a molded end extension cord, the LONG CORD  used the molded end, why I am not sure,  maybe distance or what they had,  

NEVER TRUST THE GUY BEFORE YOU,      




But if it ran before on 115 volts   then the starter had to handle twice the amperage it will use when swapping to 230, and I see the ratings       so I doubt there is a problem    I just want to make sure on anything I cannot be there to actually see,          

Before the top side [power in side] of the starter was fed with two wires, those two wires were connected to a single pole breaker, via a plug in to an outlet, 115 volts

You are changing that to accept a 220 plug,   which is the right thing to do,        

Now you  are going to use the same two wires but they will come from the double pole breaker,  putting 230 on the top incoming power side of the starter,   

You made a change to the plug in on the outlet to accept the 220 male plug,    once you swapped the power to the outlet,   it is now 230 on the two prongs        

When the contactor/starter is closed,   out the bottom [load side] will come the 230 volts,   


Some starters have a control coil,      like you said     the distance from the breaker and motor,  is too far to see both at once,        they  put these control coils in starters so you can run a toggle switch or wired remote out of the starter,     

That coil if supplied, could be ANY VOLTAGE, DC  AC  whatever they wanted to use as control voltage but we don't need to be concerned with that,      the user picks what works for him/her if control voltage is used

In that scenario  when you used, say a push button station on a cord,    it would close the coil,  a magnetic coil,  that would close the MAIN contacts allowing whatever is fed in the top to come out the bottom,     

http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Machine%20Control/0140CT9201.pdf

The above link covers all kinds of starters even three phase,  don't be intimidated by all the connections and symbols,    you are a fast learner with common sense,  and this is a good reference PDF,  if you should do this again with a lathe or some other piece of equipment.

http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/Motor%20Starter%20Wiring%20Diagrams.ashx


The link above provides a much simpler explanation of how different starters operate,

http://www.electricalsurplus.net/detail.asp?ProdID=10384

Above is the Furnas 11DB2B  now SIEMENS  obsolete starter     

Notice the HEATER OVERLOAD    that is the metal device at the bottom  it melts and opens the circuit,    with the device originally at 115  if the proper sized H overload was installed it is TOO BIG for the lower current of the 230 volt,     and should be changed to the lower rating at some point,  and you can actually power down the breaker,  remove the existing heater overload,   take it to an electrical supply house and give them the data off the motor,

Again I see no other loads but the motor,    no lamps, feeds,  anything,  just a motor,   


I see your confusion,  real well with this new photo,     

But damn glad you sent this latest photo      no wonder you are confused,        !!!!!!


The power must come in the top,  the load is connected to the bottom, of a motor starter,   are there any auto feeds or other devices associated with this planer?


I see nothing coming in from behind the starter,     

I can see the cord connected directly to the motor, not to anything else, I SEE THE LOAD END ENTERING THE BACK  WHICH I HAVE TO ASSUME GOES DIRECTLY TO THE MOTOR    WITH AN OPEN ENDED CORD,          


At this point   because you cannot be at the breaker and the machine,    run your 220 with breaker off,   to the top two connections, SAME WIRES AS BEFORE,   POWER IN THE TOP, through your new outlet,       do not wire to the motor yet,

CAREFULLY LAY THE OPEN END OF THE CORD FROM THE BOTTOM SIDE DOWN  AWAY FROM TOUCHING ANYTHING,          THE TWO WIRES THAT WILL CONNECT TO THE MOTOR,   ONE TO BLUE  AND  THE OTHER TO YELLOW AND BLACK,       PUT YOUR VOLT METER ON THOSE TWO WIRES   ON THE AC SCALE AND THEN YOU CAN SWITCH ON THE BREAKER,    AT THIS TIME THE TOP OF THE STARTER IS HOT WITH 220   

PUSH START,  AND READ YOUR METER,     IT SHOULD READ THE SAME AS DOES COMING FROM THE TWO POLE BREAKER,         SHUT THE STARTER OFF, [if it read as we expect]        WIRE THE MOTOR,    CHECK FOR DIRECTION,     IF WRONG  REVERSE THE RED AND BLACK WIRES,    CHECK ME ON THAT YOU CAN SEE MUCH BETTER THAN I CAN WHAT TO REVERSE TO CHANGE DIRECTIONS IF NEEDED,          


ONCE THE MOTOR IS CONNECTED,   POWER ON THE STARTER AND IT SHOULD FIRE RIGHT UP,     

THEN WHEN RUNNING,   WE NEED TO CHANGE OUT THE OVERLOAD HEATER sometime in the near future,

  I AM LOOKING FOR A CHART TO TELL YOU WHAT "HEATER" [TERRIBLE NAME   IT MEANS THE OVERLOAD HEATS UP IF THERE IS AN OVERLOAD AND MELTS,  SO THE SLANG IS HEATER  IT IS REALLY A MELTING OVERLOAD  AND NOTHING MORE THAN A CURLED PIECE OF WIRE]

THAT LAST PHOTO EXPLAINED A LOT,    WHY YOU WERE CONFUSED,    I THINK THEY MAY HAVE ONLY HAD A LONG ENOUGH CORD WITH THE WRONG END,  WHO KNOWS,       

MY CONCERN WAS THAT THE STARTER WAS TRULY MANUAL, NO COIL,  SO WE DID NOT APPLY THE WRONG VOLTAGE TO A COIL IN THE STARTER

BUT EVERYTHING I COULD FIND ON THIS SIEMANS/FURNAS STARTER, IS IT IS A MANUAL STARTER LIKE A LIGHT SWITCH,  

So now you can measure the voltage safely from a distance,   once you are satisfied that the voltage is 220 out the bottom,  wire the motor and it should be good to go,      I see no other devices or feeds or lamp or anything but a motor being fed from the starter,          

Looks like a simple motor load   nothing else no controls  nothing,    if that is not correct let me know,  

Do write me back and let me know if we finally got all this confusing extension cables figured out,  and I think we do,   you did a wonderful job of pointing out all this, not easy to do  but with that last photo it explained a lot to me,  

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Three phase/ AC DC single phase motors, controls, any problems or failures, motor installation, performance issues, connections. All other electric motors/gearboxes/apparatus. Specialty repair concerns, obsolete motors and solutions. Other mechanical or specialty equipment. See my profile under Home/electrical at this site

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