AboutChris Expertise 20+ years flooring installation ...carpet,wood,tile and vinyl. Residential and commercial. I do not sell the products , just install what ever the shop / customer has purchased. I actually love seeing the finished project completed and it gives me great satisfaction to help others acheive that goal. If I don't know the answer I will say so, and then I will recommend another expert for you. I may even research the subject and answer to the best of my ability ...including links to my sources.
I wish you all success
Chris
Experience 20 years as an independant contractor
Education/Credentials H.S. diploma
A.S. agriculture Mt San Antonio JR. College
Past/Present Clients Gene Bonas and Kevin Churnock Inc.
Sheward&Son&Sons
Century 21
Forte Const.
Famous Footwear
BOSE Corporation
Homebodies General Contractor
Perry Floors, Tri Cord Flooring
T.J.'S Supplies
Question QUESTION: My husband and I have just installed an engineered hardwood by LM, Kendall Click, Laurentian 1/2" x 4", 4-sided micro bevel. It's a "clicking" floating floor (no glue) and we left an expansion gap all around the room (overlapping noser near a staircase). As suggested by the dealer, quiet comfort underlayment (by Armstrong) was used. Most of the boards were 4 ft long, and we were very careful to stagger the end joints by at least 6" between rows. Our house is 15 years old, the room is above ground level , approximately 15'x12' and the subfloor is some sort of typical plywood/particle board that is screwed in place (no squeaks or noises whatsoever). The subfloor was very clean before installation and appeared level.
Problem: When the new floor is walked upon, there is a crackling noise with every footstep. It has now been installed for two weeks and the sales person thinks that the locking mechanism is rubbing and that we need to wait 6-8 weeks to see if the noise will go away on its own. The problem seems a bit more pronounced when the floor is cool (mornings), but the crackling noise is constant and present throughout the entire floor. Roughly 90% of the boards are banana boards (a term we recently discovered) , with a 1/8"-1/4" rise in the middle (we did point this out to the sales person but he said this was okay to install). Oddly enough there were about a dozen boards which were completely flat so I assume a flat board is not impossible.
We did the job ourselves and don't pretend to be experts, but we really worked very hard to ensure a tight, even fit with each board. Some boards needed more encouragement than others (I'm assuming due to the banana boards). Is it possible that they are set too tight now? The only area where an expansion gap is questionable is next to a stair case with carpeting. Could this one spot cause the entire floor to make loud crackle/pop noises?
The floor looks fabulous but I cringe every time I (or someone else walks upon it). We had planned to do the entire upstairs as well with this flooring but can't risk such a noisy flooring in such a high traffic area. I'm so disappointed and don't know what to do.
Installation instructions: www.shnier.ca/.../Laurentian%20Urban%20Kendall%20Click%20Installation.pdf
ANSWER: Hi Lynda ,
I am sorry to say that I have never had this problem and I really have tried before to answer this issue...with less than stellar results... trying to hear it and feel it from my chair is not going to work.
Armstrong had issues like this and I still don't know what if anything got resolved. Initially I had thought it was the underlayment padding ....the cheap stuff ... Then I heard more reports from other questioners...the same Armstrong product and issue even though they had used the premium pad.
At this point I would ask what the temps / humidity were / are. And the padding type name brand etc. It all lead to dead ends. And Armstrong is loosing their reputation as a user friendly company over it. Claims are subject to the slightest installer error and loop holes for Armstrong seem to appear at every turn.
So is this the case with you and your floor..no recourse ... no warranty? All companies are bound by implied contracts... especially pertaining to defective flooring. Have it inspected ... (talk to John Michaels on this forum). Did you purchase with a Credit Card? File a dispute right away. Finish the floor ... so a proper inspection can be made.
Other weird suggestions were to clean the floor with Orange Oil made for wood floors....why I don't know ...maybe to lubricate the joints? Ridiculous IMO. Do not do this if you intend to return the product. call the manufacture if you can ...speak to customer service and ask if they have a remedy, this has to have happened before. You may want to imply that a professional installed it and you are concerned.
I tried in vain to access the link you gave me ...I see some additional spaces in the link. Is this human error? Feel free to e mail me anytime... cpentmindi at msn dot com. I would like to see the PDF. I did find the many products listed here
...I want you to know that humidity needs to be at the specified % at least for a few days/ week to try and exhaust all avenues. 35-60% See any PDF about wood floors or humidity ranges for wood floors.
Also to answer the question of the expansion joint, there is no possible way that this would cause the complete floor to creak and pop. If anything you may notice the floor rocking or humping/ rising falling at this area due to the possibility of the slab being crowned there... but usually not noticeable from proper concrete finishing techniques.
I look forward to helping if I can , anytime.
Chris
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Dear Chris,
The flooring spent two weeks in family room before installation. It was installed the first week of June and the temperature (65-68 F at that point) was unseasonable cool (no humidity--well within acceptable range). Just this past week the temperature has become seasonal (80-85 F with humidity that makes it feel like 89). We use air conditioning during the extreme periods. I live in the Toronto area but don't live on Lake Ontario. Today it's raining all day and the temperatures this week is predicted to be unseasonable cool and rainy (70 F). It continues to snap and crackle with most every foot step. It appears to be ever so slightly less pronounced when it's hot/humid....not worth mentioning really.
We used Armstrong brand "Quiet Comfort" Underlayment. Are "banana boards" truly all that common with 1/2" engineered hardwood and can they cause problems? The upper finished layer appeared flat, it was the under layer that seemed to cause the banana shape. Is there an acceptable number or deviation from flat? Are floating floors more problematic? I will be buying flooring for my upstairs and would like to make a more informed decision.
The flooring is completely installed and looks great. We really don't want to take the flooring up (we installed it with great care and really can't take the time/energy to re-do it). We had planned to do the entire upstairs with the same flooring but it's far too noisy and "sounds" cheap. At this point I'm scrambling to look for a flooring that matches 4" Kendall Click-Maple Walnut finish (engineered hardwood). I'm really gun-shy now. I did a great deal of research (bought from a flooring store) and never even heard of this type of "snap/crackle--rice krispie noise" problem.... until now. It was $4.50 a square foot, is this a case of .....you get what you pay for?
I guess my goals at this point are: to stop the crackling (if humanly possible), and buy flooring with a similar appearance for upstairs. We simply can't afford to have this problem occur on our upper level as well. Should we steer away from floating floors?
I genuinely appreciate all the time and energy and input that you've put into this issue.
Ever so gratefully...Lynda
Answer Lynda,
I am just perplexed ...I don't know if it's the padding underlayment or the wood?
Is the padding covered with a film of plastic? That might be the problem if so.
Although originally distributed in the UK ...it is here in So Calif. I suspect as you are in Canada it may be there also. Pricey ... but far superior to the foam pad types.
Here is another manufacture whom I have high regards for and their products are very similar.
http://www.sponge-cushion.com/literature/silent.html
You wont have cheap sounding floors with these underlayments. And the crackling seems to be more of a plastic sounding description. If it were the wood it would pop and release and you would possibly feel the floor flexing up and down. I want to suspect the underlayment more than anything....Armstrong has had this issue before.!!
To answer some of your questions.. banana board...90%..obviously an issue with storage..which should stabilize with humidity I would hope.
1/8" to 1/4' doesn't seem to bad as long as they lay flat after you install them and do not continue to flex up and down.
I try to cull the bad pieces out and use them last if I must. If I have too many I will box them up and return for good ones. If they lay flat when incorporated with the floor I usually don't need to worry ...I will mark them with a pencil to remind me which ones they are.I can also increase the pre cut flex joints on the bottom of each board by passing it over the table saw numerous times, setting the depth of the blade as needed. This gets a bit mundane if there are too many boards ... but I have done it.
This site allows you to attach web links and or 1 picture... please open a photobucket account and upload pics there..attach the link here so I might view them. For whatever good that may do ...IDK
Product selection.. you paid a pretty penny but I know things are a bit more expensive for that side of the border, I have friends in MB...I am always surprised at prices. I can see less expensive products online but shipping might be an issue.
I found this link ..a PDF sheet stating that defective boards once installed are not warranted... but you never saw it ... I never mentioned it.
If you want to find a similar product most online companies will ship samples... Do try to get a wider board... maybe 5-7" wide.
I don't know for sure if this will help ...but all the boards I have installed in a click system are wider. Most are 1/2" and 9/16" or 12mm.
Upstairs:
Again I stress the quality of the underlayment for floating floors.
If you choose a nail down system the boards must be wide enough also to avoid cupping in the width, 5" minimum... and do install a 15# roofing felt as a sound damper first ...just loose lay and or staple every so often to hold in place over lap the felt 4-6" at the seams.
If you find yourself not being able to live with the floor and you can get the product changed out ... I would try a better underlayment too.
Or take the floor up ..and change the underlayment/re install. Find an area that might be good as a testing grounds ... 1 wall 3 feet wide and along the entire length...I am grasping at straws...
