AboutGoatlady Expertise Specializing in New Goat Owner understanding of goat physiology, goat anatomy, goat care and herd management. *I am not a veterinarian, any advice and information should be verified by your veterinarian before administering to your goats.
(! During times of severe weather in the Midwest, I may experience a delay in internet service due to the interference of the satellite reception - but will answer your questions as soon as service is restored. !)
Note: Keep in mind, the goat expert is volunteering her time to help other goat owners, she also runs her farm with her own herd of 100 goats and may not be at her computer at all hours. Questions are answered as soon as she can possibly read and answer them, usually within 24 hours.
Experience 18 years experience of raising goats and herd management. Active hands on experience with goat herd and research with various Caprine University Research and Extension Centers nationwide. 15 years dedicated to helping other goat breeders/owners with goat anatomy, goat disease and goat health care issues via phone, published goat care articles and internet interaction. The information I have to offer is not only from personal experience and years of research updated often as new information is made available to me, but supported by many Veterinary Research colleges and all medications and information I have to offer on how the medications work and what dosages "I" use, is information I have acquired by discussing directly with the company's veterinarians and staff research experts.
Organizations 5 year active member of International Veterinary Information Service
Publications United Caprine News, Homesteaders Magazine, Columnist for Goat Magazine, Owner and Author of GoatPedia™
Education/Credentials Graduate Programs in Medicine, Department of Microbiology and Immunology, Stanford University
Question QUESTION: Two weeks ago I adopted a 2-year old mini angora as a companion to my two 5 -year old fraternal twin Saanens. I did not know the angora was a mini until he was delivered -- the former owner lied about his size and weight (I did not want a small goat because I was worried the twins would injure a small goat). Unfortunately, I accepted the mini and within a couple of days, determined that I should find a more appropriate home for him since he was avoiding the two "giants" although he would go out grazing with them.
On Sunday, I brought a drive-thru sandwich basket out into the pasture to eat while they grazed. I offered a small (1" long) french fry to the mini, which he ate. I then offered a small french fry to the twins but they both refused it. The goats continued to peacefully graze as I finished off the fries. After a bit, I noticed that the sandwich was not what I had ordered so left after about 25 minutes to get the correct one.
I returned to the barn within 15 minutes and found the mini dead. Not dying ... dead. His eyes were open, his tongue was laying out of side of his open mouth which was around the stalk of a large weed (that the twins had been working on for some time). He was on his left side with his front and back legs straight out like he was lying on his side. However, his stomach seemed unusually distended. When I tried to revive him by rubbing his abdomen, a small rush of air escaped. He had no heartbeat so I reluctantly accepted he was gone. He looked like he just laid down and died. No sign of struggle. His gums were not blue.
To me, it looked like he died from bloat because of his stomach. I called a friend to come over as she has many animals and is also a nurse. She examined him and felt it must have been bloat as his stomach continued to expand from when I first found him plus gastric juices started draining from his mouth and his internal organs seemed to be pressing against his rectum.
I wish I had him autopsied but because it was Sunday and other factors, I did not. I called my vet the next day and he said the only way he could have died from bloat that quickly is if he had obstructed. He did not believe the french fry caused his death but felt it was more likely an internal abscess or a blood clot. However, I forgot to tell him about the little guy's distended abdomen.
Have you ever seen or heard anything like this? I feel awful about what happened to him. Obviously, I know he died quickly so probably didn't suffer too much but I cannot help but think that I am the cause of his death. Of course, the other possibility is that one of the twins broadsided him which could easily kill him since they weigh 300 pounds and he was only 30 pounds. I just didn't see any sign that he had been traumatized like that and my friend said there would likely be blood coming from his mouth or nose if that had happened.
I know you cannot give me a definitive answer (or, can you?) to this tragic puzzle. I only had him with me for a short time but I grew attached to him and was hopeful that it would be okay to keep him even with the size differential.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
ANSWER: HI Caroline,
I am so very sorry on your loss of this little guy.
Let me tell you- air escaping a dead goat when pushed on or moved is normal as is the bloated belly and ruminal fluids from the mouth- all normal for any kind of death age and breed of goat. Left in the heat a dead goat's gut can actually burst. The enzymes in the gut which usually ferment the rumen contents are still active and without being able to naturally belch, they build up in there.
Many of my goats eat french fries and I have never had an issue with them and most of my goats are angoras. I Highly doubt it was the french fries.
Your description is excellent - It really paints a good picture for me to try to help you with- one ting if you can remember back- was the dirt/hay around the feet/legs at all disturbed or rubbed as if his legs had been moving back and forth? If he had horns, was there any dirt/hay messed up where his horns were- these things would show some struggle.
Also, you mentioned you were eating in the pasture and found him in the barn. The goats had moved to the barn from the pasture while you were away? Was he laying downhill where his head was lower than his butt end? Or where his back was lower than where his legs were? In other words, could he have gotten down (however he got that way) and was unable to right himself back up which is common for some angoras. Laying like this for any period of time - sometimes in a matter of minutes if they have a full gut, can kill them, again, the rumen needs to express the built up gas by belching and laying this way unable to get up basically suffocates them internally when the expanded rumen pushes against the heart and lungs.
Your Sannens, males? does? horns?
When you adopted this little guy, and you already know she lied to you on the size and weight... what was the reason she was getting rid of him? I have never heard of a mini angora goat- a 30lb 2 yr old goat is undersized - My guess not having seen him, is that he was not 100% to begin with- a 2 yr old angora male even a wether should weigh in around 100lbs - even small guys will weigh around 80 lbs. Angora goats are somewhat more delicate than dairy and pygmy goats. My guess is that he may have had coccidiosis as a kid or heavy wormload as a kid and because of the intestinal wall damage, he was unable to effectively utilize his feed causing a stunted growth pattern. She sold him as a mini knowing he was not sized properly. IMHO
When you got him had he been dewormed? Had you noticed ANY weakness at all with him the weeks before this happened? Angora goats are more laid back than dairy goats and natural movements are slower and less jumpy - almost what I call laid back and graceful. Was he at all thin? (his backbone protruding at all?) Was he in full fleece? making him heavy and unable again to right himself if he got knocked down due to the weight of a heavy fleece. Last question.. the weed near his mouth - was this still in the ground with is mouth around it or was it actually bitten off and IN his mouth as if he was eating it? Do you know what it was?
I lied ..:) more questions..
Was he a white angora goat? What color was his tongue at death?
A heart attack would cause the tongue and lips and eye rims go white- even on a white goat they look white. What was his diet before you got him and how much had it changed after you got him? Was he used to pasture at all in his old home? If the plant was at all toxic and your Saanens who were already so big were used to eating it and the body mass would have diluted (for lack of a better word) the toxins in it- his small size and if he had never eaten it before could have been toxic enough to kill him- but usually (not always) a toxic plant will make a goat foam at the mouth typically. One last thing, goats do not normally lay with their legs straight out after eating, I know some do at night when they are sleeping but not right after eating, they lay up on the brisket and chew cuds, he didn't just lay down like that and die is what I am getting at. He either had an attack and fell to his death, got knocked and died immediately from the knock (internal injury of some sort) - got knocked and died because of the rumen expanding or choked on the plant possibly?
Is there ANY possibility he got shot? A 22 would not necessarily show an entry site or blood, it would go in and kill without bleeding much and with an angora goat you may not have noticed a bullet hole -
Over my 17 yrs with goats, I have experienced deaths from a heart attack, gun shot, on side couldn't get up, choked on feed, and knocked by another goat causing internal injury , so I have seen these things first hand. All on angora goats.
Again, I am so very sorry.
goatlady
Goat-Link.com
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QUESTION: Thank you so much for your response, GoatLady. I'll try to answer what questions I can but I'm limited because I had the little guy with me only 10 days before he died and, since the former owners lied and delivered him to me, I do not know what conditions he had been living under. She just said she was reducing her herd -- she also raised fainting goats. Now I wonder if she was interbreeding them with angoras.
First, he was a black angora who was delivered completely unshorn. They claimed he had been shorn last November but he was just about tripping on his coat. He was delivered on a Thursday afternoon and Saturday morning, a friend of mine came over and we cut his fleece down to a manageable amount (my friend has angoras, alpacas and llamas so knows what she's doing). Therefore, your questions about the status of his fleece are answered here.
After he was shorn, it was apparent that he was thin. In fact, when I first arrived at the barn the day he died (last Sunday), I wondered to myself about his thinness. A couple of times when I touched him, I could feel his ribs easily although his abdomen was not flat.
The former owner claimed that he had been given a CDT and wormed last November and was due again this November. My goats get the overeating injection, too, along with rabies, but she said she did not give him those.
The goats followed me down from the pasture to the barn when I left to get the correct sandwich so he was on flat ground when I left. I was gone 15 minutes tops. He was found in a flat paddock just outside the barn upon my return. No sign of struggle that I could tell and I did look for that. His tongue was light pink to whitish but not swollen and there was no froth, foram, blood or anything at all coming from his mouth initially. The only abnormal thing to me was the size of his abdomen, especially since I had noted he looked skinny when I first arrived in the barn. Do goats who are dead only a few minutes get a large abdomen so quickly? He would have had to die almost as soon as I left and been laying in the sun for the 10-15 minutes that I was gone -- it seems -- to explain this as a natural effect from dying. I certainly did not notice his belly expanded when I left.
I am certain he wasn't shot so you can rule that out. They are nowhere near where somebody could see them and the barn owners were in their house (I have to board since I don't have a farm).
The plant stalk that his mouth was around did not look like he had been chewing it, at least at the bottom where he lay. My goats had eaten off the leaves and were using it to rub their horns/head on every now and then. His head was not thrown back at all nor out of alignment with the rest of his body although there was a slight twist of his rear legs where it looked like he could have started to go down and then just fell over. Do they just fall over?
I have a doe and a wether fraternal twins. It just seems if they did something to him, he wouldn't have landed so neatly and in alignment. Plus, as I said, my friend believes there would have been blood coming from his mouth or nose if they did it to him.
I really appreciate the thought you've put into this. Of course, it will always be speculation. I do believe animals go to Heaven, too, so I hope someday to meet little Jasper again. He was very sweet.
My friend checked his mouth and throat to see if he had choked and did not find anything. By that time, however, the ruminal fluids were escaping out of his mouth.
ANSWER: HI Caroline, Let me think about this for a bit- and run it by some people I know. I lost my VERY favorite goat to a similar situation- I was devastated and the necropsy was not done well so the thought still lingers with me. The difference was - I was with him as he went down and died- all in a literal matter of minutes- and even with my attempts at resuscitation and mouth to mouth- within literally 15 minutes I lost my beloved boy and I have never gotten over it. (he is the boy in my profile photo)- http://www.allexperts.com/ep/3480-94369/Goats/goatlady.htm
My Beloved Georgie. So I DO understand how this is bothering you.
Bothering me too. :)
And I also believe they go to heaven and I too look forward to seeing my goat angels.
The slight twist of the rear legs makes me think he was knocked. His head would not have had to be twisted and falling flat out like that is typical for a goat that got knocked hard. There would not need to be blood present coming from the mouth nose or anywhere else, his liver or kidney have have been ruptured. Let me talk this over with a couple people and get back to you..
I will respond by adding to this post and then using the option of sending it via email to you OR you can recheck this post in a day or so
(how ever long it takes people to get back to me) OR yo can send me another post I can answer such as I am this one.
goatlady
Goat-Link.com
My heart goes out to you on this - :)
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: I can see the deep love that you had for your beautiful Georgie, GoatLady. I am sorry that you lost him far too early. I understand completely as I absolutely adore my two Saanens and was just coming to feel the same way about the little angora boy. I hope one of my goats did not kill him. I would feel as guilty over that as I did when I thought it was the french fry.
The Saanens have lived with other goats before, including one which was slightly larger than this guy, without any violence. In fact, they really enjoy other goats, which is why I was looking for some more to be their companions. I just felt that due to their size, they should have larger goats with them. I should never have accepted the little one from those people especially when it was clear they lied about his size.
Don't feel like you need to spend a lot of time on this. I know there is no definitive answer. It helps to know that it was likely not the french fry and, perversely, that you (and others) have had a goat die on them just as quickly. Maybe sometimes they are just meant to return Home at that point in time.
Thank you, again. I will still check here to see if you post anything and I truly appreciate your conscientiousness and interest in helping me try to understand what happened. I wish you had answers to your situation, too.
Caroline
Answer HI Caroline,
I am still waiting for answers to add to mine- I think we are limited here to the times we can respond BUT I have a contact us form on my website - why don't you send me an email via my website http://Goat-Link.com and I will then have a way to contact you personally with this- It is really bugging me and I want to get more input from people on this. Find the contact link on the top of my website pages. It will come directly to me.
