Expert: Fady D. Isho - 1/26/2008

Question
QUESTION: Incorrect. According to www.dictionary.com streamlined is classified as thin,
slim, sleek. Streamlined antonyms include chubby, fat. This has absolutely
nothing to do with a diagonal back. The national geographics animal to
human pictures display that a duck's does not have as much mass on the
torso as a crocodile. So you still believe that an anaconda will wrap around a
crocodile faster than a duck?

I said they will both start 50 feet away from each other because that is the
ideal and fair distance to give both animals in a face off. Both animals are
aware of each other and both will have a fair chance at fighting the other
without any ambush advantages or tactics involved. Paraphrasing your
previous statements, you are trying to say the anaconda will somehow get to
the crocodile's back and bite it despite the fact that both opponents are
aware of each other.

Once the anaconda comes into the saltie's danger zone, there is absolutely
no way the anaconda will avoid being bitten by the crocodile. Two things can
initiate the fight. The crocodile lies in wait on the dry land and waits for the
anaconda to engage and once the anaconda comes into the danger zone and
strikes, it will leave its long body and coils around the floor, the crocodile
uses its jaws and picks up the anaconda. Next scenario is the anaconda sits
and waits on dry land, while waiting for the crocodile to engage. The
crocodile, being able to move @ 7MPH will confront the snake and use its 12
metres per second for a quarter of a second to close the distance once it
comes within 5 meters away from the snake. The crocodile, either way will
have more range to strike since it can cover its whole body length in an
instantaneous movement according to Dr. Britton.

You believe flexibility will save the anaconda from being bitten at least once?
You think the crocodile will foolishly lie in wait as the anaconda bites, and
coils around the crocodile? Flexibility has nothing to do with this. The
anaconda is not going to be coming from behind, as I said, this is a fair face
off where both animals are aware of each other. There will be no
"maneuvering to the back" going on. It's quite clear, once the anaconda
comes into the crocodile's danger zone, it will get bitten.

Your videos displaying anaconda predation on small caimans and alligators
does nothing to solidify your perspective. As I have said, I am willing to give
the anaconda the win as long as the crocodilian is small and therefore
without potent jaw power. I posted two pictures to you displaying two
relatively mediocre sized crocodiles and two large python girths that were
being eaten. You posted pictures of large anacondas constricting small
caimans. The point is, the crocodile's powerful jaws will be the deciding
factor in this fight. If the crocodilian does not posess powerful jaws, powerful
enough to break the spine, then it will not win unless it connects a head bite.  
The fight depends on the crocodile's jaw power, as Dr. Britton has already
explained.

I don't know why you're calling me biased when it's evident you are denying
cold hard facts and statements. You think the anaconda will somehow bite
the crocodile, coil around the crocodile without the armored reptile
exchanging a bite of its own. I've already stated this many times. A crocodile
needs only one motion to bite and connect its jaws. Once the snake is in the
crocodile's jaws, maneuvering it around to the back is a simple task that is
not going to be interrupted. The snake's biting, and coiling is a two step
process that doesn't even necessarily end in a death. It ends in a struggle,
simple as that. You are most definitely underestimating the bite force of a full
grown saltwater crocodile. 4000 pounds of pressure for a 15 foot crocodile.
Perhaps 8000(according to Dr. Britton) for a 17 foot crocodile. This leads me
to believe a 16 foot crocodile will have almost up to 6000.

You stated that a duck is more robust than a crocodile, therefore harder to
coil around. This is incorrect, as the national geographic photos display, a
crocodile is much broader and it is therefore going to take a longer time to
coil around. The crocodile's body is obviously longer(16.75 feet) but its torso
is still much more robust than the duck's. Surely you aren't going to argue
that the anaconda takes less time coiling around a 16 foot crocodile than
coiling around a duck.

So you are denying hard cold facts and quotes by a crocodilian scientist? Dr.
Adam Britton clearly states that salties regularly dine on large reticulated
pythons and you are now denying this and telling me is wrong, and incorrect
in his vast informed knowledge of crocodilian diets. So you are saying you are
more experienced than Dr. Adam Britton when it comes to dealing with
saltwater crocodiles. You say saltwater crocodiles do not eat reticulated
pythons regularly yet I have this quote says otherwise...

"Large saltwater crocodiles eat retics
regularly, including very large ones, although I don't think anyone has ever
recorded a really large saltie versus a really large reticulated python.
But I'd be pretty certain that the saltie would win every time."

I also have these sources that say snakes are part of a saltie's diet.

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herpetology/brittoncrocs/csp_cpor.htm

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/animals/saltwater_croc.html

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/cnhc/csp_cpor.htm

Are you going to criticize these sources as well?

Dr. Britton's full response regarding saltwater crocodile and anaconda
interspecies conflict.

"Obviously a saltie vs anaconda is never going to happen in the wild, but the
closest equivalent would be a saltie vs reticulated python - two species
that do overlap in the wild.  Large saltwater crocodiles eat retics
regularly, including very large ones, although I don't think anyone has ever
recorded a really large saltie versus a really large reticulated python.
But I'd be pretty certain that the saltie would win every time.  You're
talking a very large, very heavy, robust crocodile against a really quite
flimsy snake.  One bite from the crocodile, especially combined with a flick
of the head, and the snake would be mortally wounded.  Just the bite alone
would probably break the spine, and if not then a head flick certainly
would.  Conversely, the snake would have to wrap itself around the crocodile
and attempt to constrict.  The snake would have to put a huge amount of
force on the crocodile to have any effect, and frankly all the crocodile
would have to do would be roll several times.  The weight of the croc would
probably do a lot of damage to the snake just by rolling.

Anything is possible of course, but the croc would have to be pretty sick or
extremely unlucky to lose against a python and... by extension, an anaconda.
And obviously if there's a big size difference and the snake is much bigger
than the crocodile, then it's a whole new ballgame."

ANSWER: Hi, Alex

How are you going to tell me what streamlined is, of course, I know what it is. Crocodiles are much more sleek then ducks. Ducks aren't even streamlined they are round and there back is more of a rainbow then a diagonal with a slight curve.

Almost all animals avoid getting bitten by crocodiles even in this so called "danger zone" all the snake has to do is cut right by the crocodiles jaws which will not be very hard at all once it gets to the side of the crocodiles jaw then there is no way the crocodile will maneuver itself in for a clean bite before the snake coils around the crocodile perhaps around the jaws first which would make it virtually impossible to open the jaws again as I have said crocodiles have very weak jaws when moving up and down.

I have already told you why I thought your statements where biased, please read them over and it will make perfect sense, there is no way you where not able to make the connection.

8,000 pounds of force, and even 6,000 according to some estimates rivals the bite force of Tyrannosaurus rex, seriously ?

I never said a duck was more robust then a crocodile, and crocodiles don't average nearly 17 feet. The average length for an adult saltwater crocodile is not more then
5 meters.

I already told you many times I don't agree with what
Dr. Britton says in some regards you don't have to tell me what I have said. And you once again said misquoted me again, when did I say I was more experienced then
Dr. Britton. Obviously, if I didn't consider myself an expert I would not think twice about arguing with his opinion but when I think, change that I know there is an incorrect assertion being made then please, by all means line my words up against the best.

And now your sources, all those sources say are snakes which could mean any snake, perhaps not even the reticulated python which is actually in the family "Pythonidae". Perhaps when I said that anaconda's prey on caimans you shouldn't have misquoted what I said and automatically thought I was referring to black caimans, which you have done now with snakes and reticulated pythons. But what's the point of telling you, I am sure you will send me Dr. Brittons e-mail for the thirteenth time today, and tell me how crazy I am.

Please, don't send that email anymore, trust me I have many copies and I know what he said, I just disagree with it. Once I do this, your e-mail is as important as zero which is why you are so annoyed because you believed that a single e-mail from a single expert would be enough to make my change my entire view on animals because I would be frightened enough to change my opinion. Well, once you get to know as much about animal's as me perhaps you understand what I mean.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Yet the duck is lower to the ground, not as robust, and definitely doesn't take
up as much mass as the crocodile's torso. Yes, a duck is definitely more
robust than a crocodile. The crocodile's body is overall longer which gives it
its description streamlined but the duck's body is not more robust than a
crocodile's. This is the idea here.

So do you still believe the anaconda is going to wrap around the crocodile
faster than it would a duck?

Do you realize that once the snake so called "cuts" by the crocodile's jaws, it
will have the rest of its body trailing it, which will be a perfect target for the
crocodile to bite? That's about 20 feet of anaconda still trailing as the
anaconda "cuts through the crocodile" and bites its side. Your scenario is still
illogical and unlikely to happen. You think the snake will somehow zip past
the crocodile, bite the crocodile's side and coil around all before the crocodile
catches any part of its body in its mouth. Do you realize that the crocodile
can move 12 metres per second for a quarter of a second, which is one
instant movement from 5 meters away? You clearly aren't digesting this
measurement in your head, as you think the anaconda will somehow zip past
the crocodile's head and bite it on the side, while removing its 20 foot body
out of harm's way despite the fact that the crocodile is over twice as heavy as
the anaconda and can easily "control" the anaconda once it bites it before the
coils are swung over. So how exactly is the anaconda going to swing its coils
under the crocodile if the crocodile refuses to get off its belly? I'd like to see
you explain this one.

There is no connection here between myself and the word bias. You, on the
other hand, fabricate fantasy-like scenarios in which the anaconda will
somehow secretly use its quick speed on land and zip behind the crocodile,
in which the anaconda will bite, coil and squeeze the crocodile to death
before the crocodile can push in one bite. I believe, the bias finger should be
pointed at you.

Those numbers are the numbers I got from a crocodilian scientist. 4000 and
6000 pounds of pressure is more than enough to break the spine of an
anaconda anywhere its bitten. Those are the numbers, and its best you accept
them, since I received them less than 24 hours ago through personal contact.

You clearly did say a duck is more robust in our previous exchanges and I
have the quote right in my email where you said this. I will reproduce the
quote for you if you would like me to. I clearly proved you wrong with the
national geographic human to animal picture comparisons. Crocodiles
average around 5 meters which is 16.5 feet. How exactly is this not "near" 17
feet?

This is not something you can "agree" with. Dr. Britton states that saltwater
crocodiles regularly eat very large reticulated pythons. This is not an opinion,
this is a fact so there is no "disagree" or "agree" here. If you deny this hard
cold fact then you are simply in denial. If you told me that the largest
anaconda was 28 feet and I told you I "disagree" it would make absolutely no
sense. It's a fact, not an opinion. You told me Dr. Britton was "wrong" when he
said crocodiles eat saltwater crocodiles. This leads me to believe that you are
more informed about crocodiles than he is. You must have more experience
than Dr. Britton if he is clearly "wrong" about this issue regarding saltie's
eating reticulated pythons regularly.

You may know specific, "did you know" facts about animals, numbers but you
are clearly misinformed on how to apply these numbers and facts in a logical,
realistic scenario. Actually, scratch that, your numbers regarding a crocodile's
bite force, ability to explode on land, were all incorrect. As you previously
stated that a crocodile is unable to explode on land, and I provided a link that   
proved otherwise. You said a saltie has a bite force of around 2400, which is
clearly, a good 1500lb off.

You can deny Adam Britton's explanation all you want but you cannot deny
the fact that saltwater crocodiles prey on reticulated pythons regularly. He
produced this fact, as well as several other sources. You try to excuse these
sources by saying that "snakes" is a vague word, yet it was CLARIFIED by Dr.
Britton that retics are constantly preyed on. He specified which kind of snake.
Talk about how you don't want to believe his speculation but you can't deny
the hard cold fact that salties regularly prey on large retics. It's a fact, not an
opinion. It's undeniable, and if you continue to deny it, it only points out
severe biasness regarding this issue.  

Answer
Hi, Alex

Yes, I do. You can trust me crocodiles are far more streamlined then any duck, I can guarantee this.

Hi Fady,

I get several of these questions each month, and it's usually saltwater
crocodiles versus either great white shark, tiger, or anaconda.  I
usually
don't have time to answer, but I do remember this particular one.  I've
even
dug it out and attached it to this e-mail, so you can see what I
actually
said and what the original question was.  Re-reading it now, I could
probably have been less ambiguous on some points, but I don't see
anything
particularly wrong with them.

The trouble is, people are looking for definitive answers, but they
don't
exist in these questions especially when you're dealing with two large
animals with absolutely no context.  And if you try to explain the
nuances,
they are often ignored in favour of easy quotes.

To address your points specifically...

1. I agree completely, anacondas do kill caimans and black caimans
regularly.  My point to Andrew, that may have been taken out of
context, was
that large adult black caimans would be much tougher for large
anacondas and
jaguars to kill.  That point stands.

2. Do saltwater crocodiles kill and eat reticulated pythons?  Yes they
do,
and from the evidence I've seen, the odd photo, and discussions with
colleagues who work in SE Asia they appear in stomach contents fairly
frequently.  They are not a major part of the diet, but they are taken
quite
a bit.  Maybe "all the time" is a bit of an overstatement, but it's
common.
That's not really surprising - they do occur in overlapping habitat.

3. Large pythons have their spines broken regularly when they're run
over by
cars on the road, and the bite of a large saltwater crocodile generates
quite a bit more force than that of a family saloon.  And that's before
they
flick their head, which generates enough force to rip large mammals and
other large crocodiles apart including their spine - and those are
considerably less fragile than even a large python.  Even small crocs
break
the spines of small snakes quite easily - you can see that from their
stomach contents, so I don't see a problem in stating that large
salties can
easily break the spines of large pythons.  We're talking very big
crocodiles
here, which is what the questioner was asking about.

4. Most crocodiles in most situations on land will retreat into the
water
given the chance, but certainly not always.  I've been chased enough
times
myself by large crocs on land to state this with absolute confidence!
 Large
crocodiles can be extremely dangerous on land and in shallow water -
people
have been seriously injured and killed under such circumstances.  But
I'm
not sure what this has to do with killing pythons?  Certainly pythons
will
move into swampy water, marshland and even immerse themselves in water
at
times, even though they are normally terrestrial or arboreal in nature.
That puts them into contact with crocodiles, and once they get close to
the
head the crocodile has a good chance of biting one.  There's no
question
that saltwater crocodiles can and do attack reticulated pythons.

Interesting as these discussions are, though, they're really only there
to
educate people about animal behaviour and confer some degree of respect
to
them.  They're not the matter of life and death that some people seem
to
think they are!

I hope this clarifies the statements that I made.  I'm always happy to
discuss this further if I have time.

Best wishes,

Adam

So apparently you overexaggerated his entire response to you, didn't even use your real name, and are still arguing about whether a duck is more streamlined then a crocodile.
And yes, he did agree with me on all but one of our arguments.

But if you are going to play like this, then I really don't have the time to continue this debate.