About Daniel Selinski Expertise <<<>>>>If you want the word of Jehovah and his visible organization known world wide as Jehovah's Witnesses watered down don't question me,there are other fine brothere and sisters on this board ,Brother Rando,Brenton Hepburn,and Brenda Martin who are more gentle but will also not water down the WTBTS
here you will get the truth undiluted,unadulterated and Brutally Honest,Just know with me I'am against all the Churches of Christendom as well as all other religions and it's false God's .Let it be known from this day forward Daniel Selinski is a Jehovah Witness and willing not only to look for sheeplike ones door to door in the snow,rain and if need be a blizzard but will knock the horns off goatlike ones opposed to our religious beliefs.I'am a champion and have proved myself against some of the most prominent clergy the world over,my spiritual Daggers are sharp so avoid me if you are opposed because you will be spiritually SLAIN.
Experience In Jehovah's Witness organization since 1975,served as an ordained minister and regular pioneer
Education/Credentials High school grad,Attended College.
so here are some scripture I have search which shows Christ was worshipped.
These scriptures are from the Amplified Bible:
St Matthew 2:2,8,11,8:2,9:18,14:33, 15:25, 20:20, 23:39, 28:9,28:17..... St Luke 12:8, 24:52.... John 9:38.... Acts 2:21..... Hebrews 1:6...... Revelation 4:10,5:14,11:16,14:7,15:4,19:4,22:3......
I would have search the NWT Bible but it's not available on bible.com, but I search The Amplified Bible because I wanted you to see the KJV is not the only Bible which shows Jesus Christ was/is worshipped.
These scriptures shows Christ is worshipped as God Almighty (Revelation 1:8, KJV) and if Christ is God Almighty than he is Jehovah God.
Thank You!!!
ANSWER: I explained the difference between worship and obeisance.
in Jesus’ illustration at Matthew 18:26
(Matthew 18:23-26) . . .“That is why the kingdom of the heavens has become like a man, a king, that wanted to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 When he started to settle them, there was brought in a man who owed him ten thousand talents [=60,000,000 de·nar´i·i]. 25 But because he did not have the means to pay [it] back, his master ordered him and his wife and his children and all the things he had to be sold and payment to be made. 26 Therefore the slave fell down and began to do obeisance to him. . .
Notice the same verse in KJV;
26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him
Now would Jesus use the word worship? in terms of a human NO he would not.
they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son, not worship
Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him, and the angel or angels of John’s vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as “a fellow slave” and concluding with the exhortation to “worship God
(Acts 10:25-26) . . .As Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet and did obeisance to him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying: “Rise; I myself am also a man. . .
(Revelation 19:10) . . .At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! .All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God
(John 9:38) . . .Then he said: “I do put faith [in him], Lord.” And he did obeisance to him.
This was not worship as it would be bowing to God.
You will believe what you want I just provide the scriptures and explain the truth,again if Jesus is Jehovah why would he talk about someone else to worship he told Satan that God is to be worshipped,if he is God he should have said I am to be worshipped
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: I wonder if you were considering our entire conversation before you ask me why does Jesus talk about someone else to worship. I believe in the Godhead, I said,"I understand your position of Faith, but I disagree". But your question overlooks what I believe. Now I know I can believe what I want and I want my beliefs to be rooted in Truth. This is your chance to reveal what's wrong with my faith in God. But, I don't think your doing well. And it seems you want me to stop e-mailing you and I will (unless you clearly let me know differently, this will be the last one).
So now, you best attack to unveiling what's wrong with the Godhead is: the KJV is false; I must read the NWT to know the truth; and Jesus is not Jehovah and is not worshipped according to the Jehovah's witnesses understanding of the Bible from the NWT. That's all I got from you, and I knew this before we starting the convo.
Meanwhile, my questions you either overlooked or flat out said it was wrong and just expressed your beliefs. for examples: you overlooked all those scriptures I supplied. And you just explained, Jesus was not worshipped but they did obeisance to him according to your understanding.
Okay, Here is my last attempt of explaining why I believe in the Godhead and my problem with what Jehovah's witnesses teaches about Jesus Christ: Here's a parable for understanding the Godhead: It is written, man was made in the image of God. So if the Godhead is real we should see an image of God in MAN. By the breath of life Man has a SPIRIT that makes him a living soul; Every Man born was born a SON; and every son has a FATHER. So Man can be a FATHER thru birth, every Man is born a SON, and every Man has or had the SPIRIT of life within. Do you see it, Man the father, Man the son, Man a spirit. Now the Godhead: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Now let's see these three in ONE. I am a perfect example. I'm a FATHER because I have children, I'm a SON because I have a Father, and I'm alive by the spirit of life. SEE, all three in ME and there's only One Me. Likewise, there's Only One Almighty God (JEHOVAH) and he is "The Everlasting Father, and The Everlasting Son, and The Everlasting Holy Spirit." God Almighty speaks his WORD and his Word brings forth the Spirit of Life. This is GOD the maker and creator of Heaven and Earth. God is not God without his Word and lives only by his WORD. God is not God without his SON because the Father is not a father without his son. This is why I have a problem with the Jehovah's witness teachings. Christ has to be Jehovah God along with his father because they are One in Spirit.
I hope you understand what my position of Faith is and if you disagree please tell me something more creditable than I'm reading the wrong Bible.
Thank You - And I hope you want to continue in the spirit of finding truth.
ANSWER:
Lets examine this concept of a Godhead and what this really mean OK,first you say you believe in this concept
but how did you come to accept this ,did you do research and discovered it to be true,or was this handed down because of someone else believed and you just accepted it as truth without question.
The problem is you have to be willing to take a look at what we say the bible says that why we go door to door looking for meek persons looking for truth and willing to study with us,now in a sense you have accepted a study
here in this forum by continuing to question me,most will run from me because as I mentioned I hit extremely hard
and I'm willing to engage in spiritual warfare where we both throw spiritual daggers,Im not a little girl at your door with the Watchtower and Awake scared hoping no one comes to the door,my daggers are sharp and you will be slain spiritually.
So its up to you if you want me to continue or you run like all the rest,the ball is in your court you can take your ball and go home or you can play ,if you choose to continue just know up front I'm against the churches of christendom,against the King James version and can prove why its false and I will give you one example now.
What is the best New Testament?
by Greek scholar Ernest Cadman Colwell
Related Subjects: Bible. -- N.T. -- Criticism, interpretation, etc. | Bible. -- N.T. --
Below are the 64 scriptures that Colwell uses to determine accuracy in a New Testament.
TR = Textus Receptus King James
WH = Westcott and Hort [used by Jehovahs Witnesses]
:15 TR This was he of whom I spake
WH For it was he who said it
1:18 TR the only begotten Son
WH the only begotten God
1:27 TR He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me
WH He is to come after me
1:28 TR Bethabara
WH Bethany
1:39 TR Come and see
WH Come and you will see
1:49 TR Nathanael answered and saith unto him
WH Nathanael answered
1:51 TR Hereafter ye shall see heaven
WH you will see heaven
3:15 TR That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal
life
WH That whoever believes in him may have eternal life
3:25 TR between John's disciples and the Jews
WH between John's disciples and a Jew
4:15 TR come hither to draw
WH come all this way to draw
4:35-36 TR they are white already to harvest. And he that reapeth
WH they are white for harvesting. The reaper is already
4:42 TR is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world
WH is indeed the Saviour of the world
4:43 TR departed thence, and went into Galilee
WH went on to Galilee
5:2 TR Bethasda
WH Bethzatha
5:3 TR a great multitude
WH a multitude
5:3-4 TR waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a
certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first
after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever
disease he had.
WH omitted
5:12 TR Take up thy bed, and walk?
WH pick it up and walk?
5:16 TR persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because
WH persecute Jesus because
5:30 TR of the Father which hath sent me
WH him who hath sent me
6:11 TR he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were
set down
WH he distributed to them that were set down
6:17 TR Jesus was not come to them
WH Jesus had not yet come to them
6:22 TR none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were
entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat
WH no other boat there except one and that Jesus had not gone into the boat
with his disciples
6:39 TR of the Father who has sent me
WH of him who has sent me
6:40 TR of him who has sent me
WH of may Father
6:47 TR He that believeth on me hath everlasting life
WH He that believeth hath everlasting life
6:51 TR and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for
the life of the world
WH and the bread that I will give is my flesh, on behalf of the life of the
world.
6:58 TR not as your fathers did eat manna
WH not as your fathers ate and died
6:63 TR the words which I speak
WH the words which I have spoken
6:69 TR thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God
WH you are the Holy One of God
7:20 TR the crowd answered and said
WH the crowd answered
7:26 TR Do the rulers know truly that this is truly the Christ?
WH Do the rulers know that this is the Christ?
7:39 TR for not yet was the Holy Spirit
WH for not yet was the Spirit
7:40 TR many of the crowd
WH some of the crowd
7:53-8:11 TR Pericope Adulterae
WH omits (or in appendix)
8:59 TR and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so
passed by.
WH and went out of the temple
9:4 TR it is necessary for me to work
WH it is necessary for us to work
9:11 TR to the pool of Siloam
WH to Siloam
10:4 TR whenever he puts out his own sheep
WH whenever he puts out all his own
10:26 TR because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you
WH because ye are not of my sheep
10:29 TR he who gives to me is greater than all
WH that which he gives me is greater than all
11:30 TR but he was in the place
WH but he was still in the place
11:41 TR Then they took away the stone from the place where the corpse was
lying
WH Then they took away the stone
12:4 TR Judas Iscariot, Simon's son
Judas Iscariot
12:22 TR and again Andrew and Philip
WH Andrew and Philip went
12:41 TR These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory
WH These things said Isaiah, because he saw his glory
12:47 TR my words, and believe not
WH my words, and does not keep them
13:18 TR the one who eats bread with me
WH the one who eats my bread
14:4 TR you know where I am going and you know the way
WH you know where I am going
14:28 TR because I said I am going
because I am going
16:4 TR whenever the time comes
WH whenever their time comes
16:16 TR and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father
WH and ye shall see me
16:27 TR I came out from God
WH I came out from the Father
17:11 TR keep those whom you gave me in your name
WH keep them in your name which you gave me
17:21 TR let them be one in us
WH let them be "in us"
18:20 TR where the Jews always meet together
WH where all the Jews meet together
18:40 TR and they all cried out again
WH and they cried out again
19:3 TR and they said
WH and they marched up to him saying
19:29 TR and they filled a sponge with the wine
WH a sponge soaked with wine
19:39 TR a mixture of myrrh and aloes
WH a roll of myrrh and aloes
20:16 TR she said to him Rabbouni
WH she said to him in Hebrew Rabbouni
20:29 TR Is it because you have seen me, Thomas, that you believe
WH Is it because you have seen me that you believe
21:3 TR they went out and embarked in the boat immediately
WH they went out and embarked in the boat
21:15 TR Simon son of Jonah
WH Simon son of John
Translation Agrees with the Critical Text
Agrees with the later Textus Receptus Other
New World Translation 64 0 0
21st Century NT* 64 0 0
Goodspeed* 64 0 0
Rotherham 62 2 0
Byington/BLE 61 3 0
New Revised Standard 60 3 1
20th Century NT 59 4 1
Lattimore 59 5 0
New American Standard 59 5 0
Westminster 58 6 0
American Standard Ver. 58 6 0
Revised Version 1885 57 7 0
Beck's An American Trans 56 8 0
New Jerusalem Bible 56 8 0
Revised Standard Version 56 8 0
New American Bible 56 7 1
Moffatt 56 7 1
New Berkeley Version 56 7 1
Riverside New Testament 55 9 0
Barclay's New Testament 55 8 1
Kleist & Lilly New Test. 55 9 0
Wuest's Expanded Trans. 54 10 0
New English Bible 53 9 2
Holman Christian Standard 53 11 0
God's Word Translation 53 11 0
Weymouth's New Test. 53 11 0
Williams New Testament 52 12 0
English Standard Version 52 10 2
Spencer 51 13 0
New International Version 51 10 3
Basic English Bible 51 12 1
New Century Version 51 12 1
International Standard Ver 50 14 0
Ferrar Fenton 50 14 0
Good News Bible 50 12 2
Jerusalem Bible 49 15 0
Recovery NT 49 15 0
NET Bible 49 13 2
Jewish NT 49 13 2
The Message 48 13 3
Centenary Version 47 16 1
Contemporary English Ver 46 15 3
JB Phillips 45 17 2
Living Bible 42 15 7
New Living Translation 41 19 4
Amplified Bible 37 27 0
Confraternity Version 35 27 2
Concordant Literal NT 25 28 1
Knox Version 33 29 2
Challoner 25 27 2
Hebrew Names Version 8 55 1
New King James Version 0 63 1
Revised Webster 0 64 0
King James Version 0 64 0
Our New World Translation stands as the best stand alone version of the New Testament in English by Jehovahs Witnesses
King James dead last 0 out of 64
So like I said I hit hard and if you want bible truth I'm here for you ,we dont water down the word of God to appeal to
a large number as do the churches who let homosexuals serve as priests,women pastors all to attract a larger number.
So if you want the truth about the concept of a Godhead I'm your servant.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: You have not hit anything hard. LOL......
The only thing you've done is use the KJV as a sheild to dodge my question.
I waiting to see your spiritual attacks and I'd like to warn you of your weak defense. Please you need to upgrade from the KJV sheild.
What I believe is what I believe. Yes, the Godhead concept was taught to me from my youth. SO WHAT!!! Here your chance to expose it and prove it false to me. The KJV sheild isn't working and I feel like your dodging my question.
Here what I said previously in summary: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost is Almighty God-Jehovah!!! In the Life of Mankind, the image of Jehovah can be seen. Man a father, Man a Son, Man a Spirit of Life. And a Father,Son,& Spirit can be seen in One Man; Just like GOD. (Please feel free to test my theory, it true) My Bible and Your Bible I'm sure teaches, that Man was made in the image of God (Almighty God-Jehovah).
So please answer and/or attack my position of Faith. How is Jesus (the son of Almighty God-Jehovah)not God Almighty when he was born God Almighty and how would he not have his father's name?
Answer OK,welcome back I see you are looking for truth or to validate your beliefs in the concept of a Godhead thats good,so lets get started.
I wll use your KJV were possible as well as our NWT.
Lets look at one proof text taken from John 1-1 to confirm the Godhead; by the churches of christendom
KJV
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Where in the text do you see the third part of the Godhead? its not there the 3rd part which is said to be the holy spirit is not even mentioned just the word and God.
So for this reason the Council of Nicaea did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later trinitarian theology,
But it did not establish the trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the holy spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead.
At John 5:18.
John 5:18 (King James Version)
18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God
But who said that Jesus was making himself equal to God? Not Jesus,He defended himself against this false charge in the very next verse
19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
So since Jehovah sent his son, Jesus must have been in heaven to observe the things his father does for him to make this statement.
notice again if this says equality with God,the son says:
"The Son can do nothing of himself"
So one part of a Godhead is here dependant not co-equal and that is not what the definition of the Godhead is:
According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three “Persons” are not separate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists.
So I have provided information on 2 parts of this Godhead clearly showing problems with this teaching,on one hand the co-equal holy spirit is not even mentioned and anothrt part is dependant.
Its said in the Athanasian Creed that the holy spirit is God,said to be eternal and almighty ,
What is this 2rd part of the Godheads name? HOLY SPIRIT? is this the name? we have Jehovah,Jesus and the 3rd part of the Godhead nameless.
So we have to ask what differenchiates The HOLY SPIRIT which is God the 3rd part from angels,angels are spirits and they are said to be holy,and angels have names but yet here we are to accept a 3rd part of a Godhead the holy spirit with no name.
The New Encyclopædia Britannica 1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126
says:
Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament:
‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.
Thats why I asked you did you do research or was this just handed to you which is what you said,your thinking is like many others who feel if it was good enough for my mother and father its good enough for me,but its not good enough for me.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
Admits:
The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.
They admit this and yet this is your false teaching which comes from the catholic church.
The Encyclopedia Americana (1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L:
“Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”
So as we have seen Sir and you yourself have admitted ,neither the word “Trinity” nor a statement of the Trinitarian dogma is found in the Bible,so I then have to ask some questions since unlike you I dont just accept whats handed to me.
Are the concepts that are embodied in that dogma found in scripture?
Does the Bible teach that the “Holy Spirit” is a person?
The Holy Scriptures tell us the personal name of the Father—Jehovah. They inform us that the Son is Jesus Christ. But as I mentioned nowhere in the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit me myself I have to ask why.
At Acts 7:55, 56 we read:
KJV
55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
I mention this because if there is a Godhead as you have been taught
why in this passage is it not mentioned,if this is a real concept
this scripture should have read :
55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God,Jesus and the Holy Ghost standing on the right hand of God,
But it didn't ,it only mentioned the father and son seen in heaven.
for one thing we are told that God is a spirit so another spirit should have been seen.
and as you notice I use your translation.
Another troubling question is does the Bible agree with those who teach that the Father and the Son are not separate and distinct individuals?
At Matt. 26:39,
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Do you see the problem this statement raises? read it again.....
"O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
Do you see it now?
If the Father and the Son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless. Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the Father’s will.
But you dont see that here.
Does the Bible teach that all who are said to be part of a Godhead are eternal, none having a beginning?
KJV
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature
In what sense is Jesus Christ the first-born could this mean when he was born on earth? NO couldn't be it clearly says firstborn of every creature
NWT renders it;
(Colossians 1:15) . . .the firstborn of all creation. . .
Young's Literal Translation)
15who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Amplified Bible
the Firstborn of all creation
So this is not talking about his birth on earth.
According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons and angels are said to be his sons:
(Job 2:1)
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD
So this clearly shows his son Jesus was created so he cannot be almighty God and part of a co-equal Godhead.
Looking at your dogma again it clearly states:
"there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another"
Does the Bible teach that none of those who are said to be included in this teaching is greater or less than another, that all are equal, that all are almighty, NO
As you read these last scriptures see if you get the idea and concept of a Godhead having all knowledge and power:
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
I mentioned this passage for one simple reason,do you see the problem this statment causes?
If the Holy Spirit were a person and were God, this text flatly contradicts a Godhead doctrine, because it would mean that in some way the Holy Spirit was greater than the Son.
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
So there you have but just a few of hundreds of scriptures that are against the concept of a Godhead.
Please feel free to comment on these scriptures to show your side that these verses confirm the teachings you believe in.
