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About Ben Erdman
Expertise
I will attempt to answer any questions that have to do with major Jehovah’s Witness doctrine. I will also try to give an accurate and honest explanation from the "Truth" (the Word of God). I am not a Jehovah’s Witness. I was never baptized. I am a "witness" for Christ. I love talking about God and the piercing Word that He has provided for us. If I don't know the answer to a question I will be more than happy to research it and get an answer. So, let’s talk.

Experience
I have grown up in the religion known as Jehovah’s Witnesses. Nearly all of my family (immediate and extended) are Jehovah’s Witnesses. I have been to probably hundreds of meetings, several assemblies and have had many in-depth bible studies with Witnesses. I love these people and admire their great zeal to do what they believe is truth. I have done extensive research into this area. I have a great passion in Jehovah’s Witness doctrine and beliefs.

Education/Credentials
I do not have any particular educational credentials that affect this field. I believe that I have been very educated in this field of Jehovah’s Witness doctrine by my own experience and extensive studies. I also believe in my heart that the Spirit of God has educated me in this area and will continue to do so.

You are here: Experts > Religion/Spirituality > Christianity - Restorationism > Jehovah`s Witness > Hell

Jehovah`s Witness - Hell

Expert: Ben Erdman - 11/3/2009

Question
QUESTION:

"This is another doctrine that took me along time to come to grips on. I had always agreed with what my family told me. They were always telling me that they could not believe in a God that would allow someone to go to a place called hell for eternity and be tortured there day and night. When I began to understand God and His character, I could see how he created us and what sin is and what our choices are"

Your statement,my question is since you believe God is a loving person would he not have warned Adam of such a place if it exist?
To create such a horrible place of endless torture and not even make Adam aware of it seems to me the God you serve is fendish and evil.I mean when persons are in great danger from a source that they do not suspect or are being misled by those they consider their friends, is it an unkindness to warn them.

God never strikes without warning. Did he deluge the first world in watery destruction without warning? Did he burn out depraved Sodom and Gomorrah in a fiery downfall without warning? Did the Almighty take Egypt unawares as he sent wave after wave of destructive plague through the land? When Jehovah maneuvered the overthrow of Israel and Judah by foreign invasions, were the victims unwarned? Mighty Babylon that ruled like a glamorous queen over peoples and nations, should she have been surprised and caught flat-footed when enemy hosts took her by storm? And what of the desolation that struck Jerusalem during the first century did that blow fall without warning? God said;

"Thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me"

Nevertheless you would have people believe a God of warning who said he wouldn't do a single thing unless he warns create a burning hell fire and not warn Adam who must be there as we speak.

This is your God not Jehovah's Witnesses people like you ,jones,future man and holland are nothing but stumbling blocks to weak witnesses who grew up like you who never were called by Jehovah but only were around the true religion and now call yourself an expert. You probaly will not answer this question
since you have been exposed as a fraud,doesn't matter though because you and I know who your God is ,the God of this evil world.

ANSWER: Hello Mike and thank you for the question/'s.

You said, "my question is since you believe God is a loving person would he not have warned Adam of such a place if it exist?"

By you asking me this question makes me think of a few things. The first thing is that by you referring to Adam, the first man, you most likely understand that Hell is described elsewhere in the Bible. But since you are referring to Adams time I must ask you a question. Does Moses record everything that took place in the account of Adam and Eve? You seem so sure of yourself that God did not warn Adam. Can you show me scripture where it states that they did not know of this? Or is this a case where if the Bible doesn't say something in particular, we must believe the opposite?

The next thing that I would like to point out is God did warn Adam not to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil(Gen. 2:17). What completely this good and evil meant we don't know. But we do have some ideas. I would also like to point out that I don't believe that it would be an act of love necessarily for God to tell Adam about Hell to keep him from going there. I don't think that God wanted to have a relationship with His creation based on fear. I think He created all of us to have a relationship with Him based on love. You must understand. Before Adam sinned, he was in PERFECT fellowship with God. It was so perfect that God walked through the garden with him. Moses does not enlighten us that Adam was told what exactly the full consequences of sinning was. God did not even really begin to describe the consequence of their action to them until AFTER they disobeyed. So, another question for you. Why didn't God fully explain to them what the full consequences of disobeying was BEFORE they had sinned? I mean, we don't have record of God explaining fully before OR after Adam sinned.

Next you state, "To create such a horrible place of endless torture and not even make Adam aware of it seems to me the God you serve is fendish and evil.I mean when persons are in great danger from a source that they do not suspect or are being misled by those they consider their friends, is it an unkindness to warn them."

You know, if I were you, I would be very careful what you are saying. If you know everything there is to know, especially about God, then maybe you would have some room to say something this bold. The fact is, you don't. I don't for that matter. God is not evil no matter how you look at it. If His Word says that he is great and just and righteous and love, then I believe it. In fact, please read the following found in Job 36:26..."26Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out." So Mike, please do not jump to conclusions about Gods character. There is so much that we do not understand about Him and you must agree to that.

And by the way, like I said before, God did warn Adam. He warned him not to eat from that tree. That is a warning. I would think that Adam at least knew that God was sovereign. Not only that but that God knew what he was talking about. Don't you? Like I said before, God did warn Adam not to eat from the tree but did NOT tell him all of the consequences of actually doing it.

Regarding your next paragraph, I agree. God did warn them. Just as He warned Adam. But His warnings in these examples were always an immediate consequence that would happen, not eternal. If I am wrong, please enlighten me.

"Nevertheless you would have people believe a God of warning who said he wouldn't do a single thing unless he warns create a burning hell fire and not warn Adam who must be there as we speak."

The first thing I would like to comment on is that your verse that you provided did not say that God wouldn't do a single thing unless they were warned. This I believe is a command that God is giving. Not a promise. Also, you said that Adam must be in Hell as we speak. Again, do you have any biblical reference to this? I never said that he was.

"This is your God not Jehovah's Witnesses people like you ,jones,future man and holland are nothing but stumbling blocks to weak witnesses who grew up like you who never were called by Jehovah but only were around the true religion and now call yourself an expert."

I love my God. I am thankful to have a relationship with God where He calls me His son. I have prayed that JW's would be able to say the same. Jw's are not my enemy. I don't have anything against them. I don't think any of the volunteers that you mentioned do either. I only want Jw's to have what I have. I am fully convicted that it is my Christian duty to share what I have been given. That is why I am here. I believe that God has given me a passion and desire to help Jw's which I never had before. By the way, thank you for the statement about me being a "stumbling block". If God uses me to be a stumbling block to keep Jw's from losing their free gift of grace, then I am honored. I hope that doesn't offend you but that is truly how I feel. Just so you know, I do NOT consider myself as a JW "expert" and I don't think the others do either. That is just a title given to the volunteers. We may know more about specific areas than most Jw's but we do not consider ourselves experts.

"You probably will not answer this question
since you have been exposed as a fraud,doesn't matter though because you and I know who your God is ,the God of this evil world."

Friend, do you know what a fraud is. Please explain how I am a "fraud". I do not claim to be someone I am not. I believe that my profile is completely honest and truthful.

This world is evil and my God is still the God of it. My God is alive and sovereign. He is beautiful and full of love. He is so gracious. He has given His grace to me even though I do not deserve it. I have accepted this grace and I do cry out to Him "Abba, Father". What about you?

Mike, I hope I didn't sound rude or inconsiderate. I do appreciate you "contending for your faith". Please open your heart. I am not here to hurt you or anyone else. I will pray for you friend and continue to pray that God works through me and that I do not deceive anyone.

God bless you,
Ben

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION:
You said, "my question is since you believe God is a loving person would he not have warned Adam of such a place if it exist?"

By you asking me this question makes me think of a few things. The first thing is that by you referring to Adam, the first man, you most likely understand that Hell is described elsewhere in the Bible. But since you are referring to Adams time I must ask you a question. Does Moses record everything that took place in the account of Adam and Eve? You seem so sure of yourself that God did not warn Adam. Can you show me scripture where it states that they did not know of this? Or is this a case where if the Bible doesn't say something in particular, we must believe the opposite?
I invoke him because he was the first human sinner and surely such a place of a burning hell would have be mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures,in terms of what Moses recorded ,he was under inspiration by God so if God wanted humans to know something as important and such a fundamental belief and doctrine he would have it recorded.

'Can you show me scripture where it states that they did not know of this? "
That is more of a guessing game asking this question,I maintain no such place exits so of course there would not be a passage stating such.

The next thing that I would like to point out is God did warn Adam not to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil(Gen. 2:17). What completely this good and evil meant we don't know. But we do have some ideas. I would also like to point out that I don't believe that it would be an act of love necessarily for God to tell Adam about Hell to keep him from going there. I don't think that God wanted to have a relationship with His creation based on fear.
Your reasoning is flawed,by your logic he shouldn't have mentioned the tree of bad or evil either since it demonstrated a fear factor ,we know Adam feared this particular tree because of what Eve said:
(Genesis 3:2-3) . . .At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3 But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die. . .
Also God tell us concerning fear;
(Deuteronomy 5:29) . . .If only they would develop this heart of theirs to fear me and to keep all my commandments . . .
So I cant see your point.

I think He created all of us to have a relationship with Him based on love. You must understand. Before Adam sinned, he was in PERFECT fellowship with God. It was so perfect that God walked through the garden with him. Moses does not enlighten us that Adam was told what exactly the full consequences of sinning was.
Not true,he knew exactly what the consequences was ,death
(Genesis 2:16-17) . . .“From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

God did not even really begin to describe the consequence of their action to them until AFTER they disobeyed. So, another question for you. Why didn't God fully explain to them what the full consequences of disobeying was BEFORE they had sinned? I mean, we don't have record of God explaining fully before OR after Adam sinned.

What more was needed ,death is the opposite of life nothing else was needed ,you seem to want the account to be a mystery
as if there was more to the wages of sin,death is the wages period

Next you state, "To create such a horrible place of endless torture and not even make Adam aware of it seems to me the God you serve is fiendish and evil.I mean when persons are in great danger from a source that they do not suspect or are being misled by those they consider their friends, is it an unkindness to warn them."

You know, if I were you, I would be very careful what you are saying. If you know everything there is to know, especially about God, then maybe you would have some room to say something this bold. The fact is, you don't. I don't for that matter. God is not evil no matter how you look at it. If His Word says that he is great and just and righteous and love, then I believe it. In fact, please read the following found in Job 36:26..."26Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out." So Mike, please do not jump to conclusions about Gods character. There is so much that we do not understand about Him and you must agree to that.

God is love and not evil ,my point is this burring hell must have existed when he created Adam so using your logic why did he create such a evil horrible place of endless torture since he is love and want his people to serve him out of love,yet even before he created this perfect man he prepared this horrible burning hell for man to go if he sinned. Makes no sense to create such a place out of love and not even warn him of it,your point seems to be if I read you is how do we know he was not warned ,We know he was not because such a place would not just be for Adam but his offspring as well and the scriptures clearly tells us;
(Romans 15:4) 4 For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope. . .
How can the grand instructor even live up to this scripture and not instruct us of such a place,no the concept comes from the false churches of Christendom and not the bible.

And by the way, like I said before, God did warn Adam. He warned him not to eat from that tree. That is a warning. I would think that Adam at least knew that God was sovereign. Not only that but that God knew what he was talking about. Don't you? Like I said before, God did warn Adam not to eat from the tree but did NOT tell him all of the consequences of actually doing it.

So then he hid the severe consequences of eternal fire which Adam had the right to know of such a place,not out of fear of going there if he disobeyed since he worshiped him out of love and didn't need to fear anything bad but he needed to know where he would end up for sin.

Regarding your next paragraph, I agree. God did warn them. Just as He warned Adam. But His warnings in these examples were always an immediate consequence that would happen, not eternal. If I am wrong, please enlighten me.

The first thing I would like to comment on is that your verse that you provided did not say that God wouldn't do a single thing unless they were warned. This I believe is a command that God is giving. Not a promise. Also, you said that Adam must be in Hell as we speak. Again, do you have any biblical reference to this? I never said that he was.

My point is demonstrating how God acts,he said in scripture he wouldn't take any action until a warning is given,so again this go against creating a hell fire and not warning man.
Adam is not in a burning hell I said this is where he is today if I accept this false teaching promoted by the false churches.

"

This world is evil and my God is still the God of it. My God is alive and sovereign. He is beautiful and full of love. He is so gracious. He has given His grace to me even though I do not deserve it. I have accepted this grace and I do cry out to Him "Abba, Father". What about you?

Jehovah is not God of this world like you say the Devil is
Like I said your God is the God of this world like you just said.my God is Jehovah.

(John 12:31) . . .Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. . .
(John 8:23) . . .So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.. . .
(1 John 5:19) . . .the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one. . .
The scriptures contradict you ,how can Jehovah be the God of the evil world ruled by Satan who the scriptures say is its God.

Answer
Hello Mike and thanks for the insight.

You said, "surely such a place of a burning hell would have be mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures".

Well, the Hebrew scriptures speak a great deal about Hell actually. However, before we engage in what the Hebrew scriptures actually say, it is vitally important that we set aside ALL human opinion and human reasoning. Like I said before, we cannot and do not fully understand God's character or the way He thinks. It is so important to let the scriptures speak for themselves without us forcing our opinions upon them. That being said, the following are SOME passages in the Hebrew scriptures that speak of Hell. You can look them up yourself:

(Deut. 32:22) (Job 11:8) (Psalm 9:17) (Psalm 18:5) (Psalm 55:15)(Psalm 86:13) (Psalm 116:3) (Proverbs 9:18) (Is. 5:14) (Is. 14:9-10) (Ezek. 32:18-21,31).

"in terms of what Moses recorded ,he was under inspiration by God so if God wanted humans to know something as important and such a fundamental belief and doctrine he would have it recorded"

Well, I believe that the above listed scriptures testify that those above under inspiration in the Old Testament did speak of it.

"'Can you show me scripture where it states that they did not know of this? "
That is more of a guessing game asking this question,I maintain no such place exits so of course there would not be a passage stating such."

Like I said before, if something isn't said at a specific time in the bible, that does not give us excuse to imply the opposite. You are trying to make an argument from silence. That is why I asked this question. If you can't prove it from scripture, then you don't have an argument. God has His own reason for not inspiring Moses to speak of Hell in this instance. He doesn't need ours. However, like I showed above and also all over in the New Testament, God does inspire writers to write of Hell. We are not God. By the way, Hell is not the theme of the Bible. Jesus is. And also, if an inspired writer of the Bible writes about a particular context (including who, when, where %26 what) and does not record Hell as being part of the communication, then that does not mean it was not brought up but that it was just not recorded. In other words, God could have at one point, for all we know, told Adam about Hell but did not inspire Moses to record it.

"Your reasoning is flawed,by your logic he shouldn't have mentioned the tree of bad or evil either since it demonstrated a fear factor ,we know Adam feared this particular tree because of what Eve said:
(Genesis 3:2-3) . . .At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3 But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die. . ."

Okay Mike, I understand the point you are trying to make and respect it but see things a little differently. I don't think that Genesis 3:2-3 shows that Adam had fear (in the sence that he was scared). The reason I say this is because he wouldn't even know what to fear. For all we know, he had know idea what death even was. For, he had never experienced it or seen it be experienced. No one, at this point, had ever died. And we do not have an account recorded here of God describing death to Adam. And your scripture does not speak of Adam having fear at all. Eve is just relaying the message to the serpent who is trying to deceive her. So, that being said, God telling Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad does not mean Adam was scared. We do not have record of Adam being scared of what God said. That leaves you with a continued argument from silence.

"(Deuteronomy 5:29) . . .If only they would develop this heart of theirs to fear me and to keep all my commandments . . .
So I cant see your point."

Sir, I think you may not be aware of the different usages of the word 'fear'. In this verse the word for fear in the Hebrew is "yaw-ray". One of the main usages of this verb is to 'revere'. Now please see what the definition of revere is...

–verb (used with object), -vered, -ver⋅ing. to regard with respect tinged with awe; venerate: The child revered her mother.

Now the question is, can we apply 'revere' in this verse and it make sense and fit the context. I believe it does. In v. 24, a few verses back, Moses says to the Israelites..." 24And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth."

Here Moses speaks of Gods "glory and greatness". This alone is a reason to revere. But at the end of the verse, he mentions that God talks with man and "he liveth". He is real. Not only is He real but He loves them enough to talk with them. These are also both reasons to revere God.

Next you say, "Not true,he knew exactly what the consequences was ,death".

The first thing that I would like to point out is that we don't know that Adam "KNEW" what death was. He was just told it. I will make additional points to this after your next statements.

You said, "What more was needed ,death is the opposite of life nothing else was needed ,you seem to want the account to be a mystery
as if there was more to the wages of sin,death is the wages period"

Like I have already said, we do not know if Adam even knew what death was. So we can not imply something that is not there. And let me ask you something. If death is just non existence as you would put it, then what is the point of the judgement of unbelievers? In fact, in every sense of punishment that I can think of, that is in the English language or in the Bible, someone is fully aware of the punishment happening. If unbelievers will be punished, it would make sence that they be aware of their punishment. Please read the following scriptures:

2 Thes. 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Pet. 2:9 - The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

I like the passage in 2Peter especially. God RESERVES the unjust unto the day of judgement when they will receive their punishment. I believe the scriptures are clear that these "unjust" are in Sheol, the place of the dead. They are there to await their judgement. God "reserves" them there. The Greek word used by Peter here as "reserve" is 'tereo'. This word means to guard, to keep watch, to detain (as in custody), to maintain or to withhold. So we see that they were maintained in custody. They were reserved. Hard to do if death meant non-existence.

And also, Adams death was not all there was to understand as far as consequence for sinning goes. The following are just some of the other consequences:

1. In Gen 3:10-11 we find that Adam and Eve found themselves to be naked and were affraid or ashamed.

2. In v.16 we find a couple things...
    a) God tells Eve that He will "greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception"
    b) God tells Eve "in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children"
    c) And God tells Eve "and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule ove thee."

3. In v.17 God tells Adam that because of his sin, "cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

4. To go with v.17 God said...18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

5. In v.21 "21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

6. And of course a few verses later it says, "23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life"

All of this would not have happened had Adam and Eve not sinned. But I do have one more verse to show more of the consequence not mentioned before Adam sinned...

Romans 5:12 - 12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

These passages just go to show that just because it is recorded that Adam was told that death was a consequence, I have ample reason to believe that Adam was not FULLY aware of the consequences of his sin.

You go on to say, "God is love and not evil ,my point is this burring hell must have existed when he created Adam".

Where do you come up with the idea that Hell existed when he created Adam. I never said that and I am not aware of any scripture that does either.

Next you say, "so using your logic why did he create such a evil horrible place of endless torture since he is love and want his people to serve him out of love"

First of all sir, as shown above, you clearly do not know what my logic is. Please be careful not to impose words on me or put words in my mouth or even assume something like this. It will save us a lot of time. Also, I believe your statement here is flaud. Let me ask you a question since if I am not mistaken you do believe in the existence of God. If God is love, why would He create man with the freewill to sin. Why didn't God just create us to serve Him and glorify Him as believers will do for eternity? I hate to answer your question with a question but I think you are wise enough to understand my point.

Next you say, "your point seems to be if I read you is how do we know he was not warned ,We know he was not because such a place would not just be for Adam but his offspring as well and the scriptures clearly tells us;(Romans 15:4) 4 For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope. . .How can the grand instructor even live up to this scripture and not instruct us of such a place,no the concept comes from the false churches of Christendom and not the bible."

Since I have not said anything about one of Adams consequences being Hell like you keep implying, I will just make an observation of what you say Romans 15:4 means and how you are perhaps unawaringly misusing this passage to make your point. Question for you again. Does this passage say that all things were written or all things THAT were written? Also, what "hope" and "comfort" do we have with Hell? None. Paul is clearly not referring to your argument from silence. And how could Hell be written for our instruction? What would that mean to you? I would also like to point out that Hell is definetly a biblical concept and not only have I provided you many scriptures to prove it but I could provide plenty more.

Next you state, "So then he hid the severe consequences of eternal fire which Adam had the right to know of such a place,not out of fear of going there if he disobeyed since he worshiped him out of love and didn't need to fear anything bad but he needed to know where he would end up for sin."

Again, you seem to have this concept that I believe that Adam went to Hell. I do not. In fact, there is no way to know for sure but I personally currently believe that Adam may have been forgiven. If you must know why then I will be happy to discuss this as a new question.

Next you say, "My point is demonstrating how God acts,he said in scripture he wouldn't take any action until a warning is given,so again this go against creating a hell fire and not warning man."

I understand what your point is but you have yet to provide me with biblical evidence of this. The scripture you provided, you took way out of context to make it say what you wanted it to say and you still failed to accomplish this. Not only that but you may want to look a little closer to what you are saying here. God giving a warning is not the point of discussion here. The point of discussion is whether or not God fully says what our consequences are. Like I said, God did warn Adam. However, it is not recorded that God told Adam what the FULL consequence of sinning would be.

Next you say, "Jehovah is not God of this world like you say the Devil is
Like I said your God is the God of this world like you just said.my God is Jehovah."

Again, you completely misunderstood not only me but the bible. Do you actually think that Satan who is referred to as "the god of this world", has all authority over it. Of course he doesn't. Only Jehovah does. I believe that it is clear that Satan is only the god of this world by influence and not authority. Your verses that you quote from John are in perfect harmony with this. My God is all powerful. My God is over all (Jn. 17:2)(Rom. 9:5)(Rom. 10:12)(Eph. 1:22). Satan does not posess these qualities. That is why he is a false god. Therefore, I believe that it is clear that the scriptures are in perfect harmony with what I am saying and don't "contradict" me as you claim.

That all being said, I feel that you are not going to succeed in your argument because as shown, it is an argument from silence. My argument is not from silence. I have provided to you what scripture does say about Hell and not what it doesn't say. Please concider this. I apologize if I sound, in anyway, harsh or overly blunt. I do not intend to affend you. I appreciate your words and look forward to hearing from you again.

Thanks and God bless,
Ben

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