About Renae Expertise I am willing to answer any reasonable questions you may have regarding my faith. 1 Peter 3:15 - "But sanctify the Christ is Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect."
Experience I have been one of Jehovah's Witnesses for 17 years, but it has only been during the last 8 years that I have truly dedicated my life, delved into research and proven what I believe in to myself through many secular sources as well as God's word the Bible.
Education/Credentials 8 years of research. I am still learning and perfecting my faith through Jesus teachings and God's will. I understand many of the deeper things of the Bible that now make much more sense to me and I am able to back up my beliefs with other resources such as Encyclopedias including the Catholic Encyclopedia, various journalist's articles, in detail as well as comparison of different biblical translations in order to get the full effect of the scriptures.
Question QUESTION: Good Morning Renae. I certainly hope you have been blessed since I last wrote. I appreciate your willingness to take questions and answer them.
I continue to have much confusion about the jw belief with the 144,000. I have a friend who is studying with a jw right now and she asks me stuff about the jw beliefs. She knows that I was engaged to a jw and have quite a bit of familarity with some of the beliefs. Anyway, I was studying my bible, and using some jw materials to try and understand it better. I'm like a berean. From what I understand the jw belief to be is that they believe that only 144,000 people total will go to heaven. It seems that I had read in jw material that they believe that the 144,000 are the only saved, or born agains. Is that what they believe?
What prompted that question is that when I was reading Acts 2, even in the NWT it states in Acts 2:41, "...on that day about three thousand souls were added." I take that to mean that about 3000 souls were born again, saved, and added to the church, the bride, the body of Christ. Is this how the jw interpret that? But more importantly in Act 2:47 it states in the NWT that "... At the same time Jehovah continued to join to them daily those being saved." So from that time on, the numbers have been added to daily. There have been over 700,000 days since that time, and even at only 1 person a day, that far exceeds 144,000 saved souls. Obviously there are many more than 1 person a day being saved, so the number of "saved", born again believers must be in the millions if not hundreds of millions.
That's what it seems like to me anyway. So, the main question is. Do the jw's believe that only the 144,000 are saved, and no one else is? I do agree that the 144,000 will be saved or born again, and that they will most certainly be in heaven. I do not believe that they are the ONLY ones that are, or will be saved. I base that on what I believe to be teachings of the inspired word of God. I have not found in the bible where the number of people saved is limited to 144,000. When the bible tells us that the great crowd is before the throne, and that no one can number them, I believe it.
When I ask or wonder about something I try and put myself in your shoes and understand it from another point or perspective. It might be helpful if you do the same and try and see it from what I am understanding or seeing. I open my mind to what I want to correct and the truth. I know the jw's say they are in the truth, or something like that. I found that to be only partially correct. I make that statement because even by their own admission they will be getting "new light" which will replace old light which means that old light was incorrect, or not the truth. So, in reality some of the things that are being taught right now, will be changed into something else making the current teachings wrong. The bible is never wrong and never has to be changed. It would scare me to death to know that I was following teachings that are known to be wrong. Jesus said, He is the way, the TRUTH, and the life. No one goes to the Father except through Him. He is our mediator. At least that's how I inderstand it as the bible teaches us.
Anyway, please try and answer, or explain what I am asking about. Also your personal opinion on the subject would be nice.
Thank you my friend. I went a bit long as usual, but I get pumped up on Jesus and learning the Word.
God Bless you.
ANSWER: Hello Cliff. I am glad you wrote to me again to have help in finding the answer to this very complex question.
First of all I would like to tell you my personal opinions or thoughts as you ask. I do believe that most of the anointed ones were gathered back in Paul's day. Infact I have a very hard time believing that any are still included in that number although it is not for me to judge, only Jehovah knows who goes to heaven and who is a part of the great crowd that will remain on earth. The reason I believe this is because most people today are not spotless, they are not usually clean. Many people who claim to be Christians, smoke, drink regularly, speak profanity, watch pornography, and do many other things that would have been looked upon as deserving of death by the early Christians. The fact is is that we are deep into the last days and things have gone from bad to worse. That being said I would like to address the fact brought out in 1Corinthians 15:50 (please follow along in your own copy of the scriptures) where it says: "This I say brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption." This scripture makes complete sense to me.
This is how I feel Jehovah purposed for humans to live: Isaiah 65:21-25. (21)"And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage. (22)They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. (23) They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their decedents with them. (24) And it will actually occur that before they call out I myself shall answer; while they are yet speaking, I myself shall hear. (25) "The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent his food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain" Jehovah has said."
The 2 scriptures I quoted above could not be more plain and clear cut. First off we know that flesh and blood cannot enter into the heavens because of 1Cor.15. Then we read in Isaiah that people will be at peace and have the life span of a tree, animals will eat straw and dust (physical elements) and people will be satisfied with their work and enjoy the benefits from it. This sounds like the original purpose for mankind in the garden of Eden! So God has not changed his purpose. He is the same and has the same idea for man that he had from the beginning.
But going through a life where he is distant from us unless we search for Him and where life seems like it has no direction and is so confusing has been a hard lesson for all humankind. We experience things that were not supposed to be a part of our life, things like war, starvation, homelessness, poverty, sickness, disease, and many more that are plaguing us.
We are only saved if we put forth the effort to make decisions that show our faith in God. As James 2:26 says "Faith without works is dead." You are not saved just because you say it or because you believe it or because you get dunked in water. You are saved according to what you do and how you live your life. If you continue to remain faithful and endure and do God's will throughout your entire life, then as is brought out in Zephaniah 2:3 when it says: "Seek Jehovah all you meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you may be concealed in the day of Jehovah's anger." Notice it says to "seek" righteousness. This is all we can do as imperfect humans, we are not righteous. There has only been one righteous human being, Jesus Christ. In Psalms 37:11 David tells us "The meek ones themselves will possess the earth. And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." If all people were going to heaven then this scripture would not make sense. We know God's kingdom is heavenly and rules over all the heavens at present. It has yet to cleanse the earth of Satan and his demons and become our earthly government. I know I do not picture myself flying around in heaven with nothing to watch over or really no idea of what angels do besides help people here on the earth. It makes sense to me that I would be a part of those who prove their love for God now during the time of testing and then enjoy everlasting life on earth forever like God has promised since the beginning. I hope this somehow has helped you to understand. I know it is hard to hear something totally different then what you have been taught elsewhere, but I encourage you to read all of the scriptures I quoted from your own copy of the Bible please.
The only reason these questions and answers are so long is because they are not simple questions and answers.:-) I hope you have a blessed day and you continue to grow in your knowledge. "Keep on asking and it will be opened to you." Just like JW's do.
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QUESTION: Good Morning Renae. Thank you so much for your response. I truly appreciate it. I agree with much of what you said. I believe with all my heart that we are in the end times and that so much of what is happening, is suppose to be happening to fulfill prophesy. I totally agree that no one is spotless. That we all sin and are hypocrits. Myself included. That the world is declining rapidly. When I was in the world I was a worldly person. But when I was saved, and born again, I became a "new creature". Oh, still not perfect, and never will be, but I am a work in progress. A clump of clay that God is molding into a vessel that He can better use. I have never used drugs, never had to worry about using profanity because I don't. I have lied, cheated, stolen, lusted, and stuff like that. But, in being a new creature that has been reduced to a next to nothing occurance and getting better. The thing is that we may spend decades in the world. We will have developed worldly ways. Even though we can be saved, and become that new creature in an instant, we still have our sin nature. We are works in progress, that should continue to improve. But we can backslide. A good example would be someone in your faith that gets disfellowshipped, but repents and gets reinstated. They knew better, but slid into sin by their sin nature, but repented and straightened out so to speak. We all need to keep straightening out. Some backslide and never come back into the faith. Some were never really in it in the first place but kinda pretended or went through the motions.
I don't think we will be flying around heaven either. I think that many people associate that with what they believe the angels do, so they think that's what we will do. I do believe we will have a glorified, incorruptible body. Not a physical body necessarily, but some type of form. We were created in the likeness of God so I would believe that it might be something similar. We were created to live in a paradise, but satan got to Eve, who got to Adam, and you know what happened with that. I think that heaven and the paradise earth will be something similar. I just don't know how heaven will be. There is a very detailed discription of the new jerusalem in the book of revelation. Since I believe the bible, I must believe what it says about that.
Here is a question about that for you. I have thought about this many times. When I started reading the bible and really learning more about the details and stuff I began to have a deeper understanding. One of the things that I am learning is the detail of the new jerusalem and how it will be. I developed, or maybe was enlightened to a possibility that the new jerusalem is "heaven" in a proper sense so to speak. It made me wonder if heaven and paradise earth are part of the same thing. Could we live in the new jerusalem, but go out into paradise earth? It would be like living in our house and going out into our backyard. I've never seen this mentioned, but to me it could make sense. Why should we be limited to only one or the other place. I think they could be combined and all be part of heaven. I know that the new jerusalem is large enough to house trillions of people. The bible tells us that it will be 12,000 furlongs cubed. That is 1500 miles, by 1500 miles, by 1500 miles. It will have 12 gates which will never close. Why have a gate if you can't go in and out. God will create a new heaven and a earth so we really don't know what that will be, or how it will be. I had a jw tell me that the new jerusalem is "too big". I simply said that my God is big enough to do what He says He will so. He created the universe and all that is in it. He can certainly make a new jerusalem exactly the way he says. Anyway, do you think that maybe the new jerusalem and paradise earth could coexsist and that we could actually be in both? I think it is certainly possible and makes sense to me. I realize it would create a different possibility from what you are being told about a separation and a class system, but just maybe we are suppose to be together and not differentiated. I'm not saying that the sheep and goats are to be together. We know the goats get cast into the lake of fire. But I don't believe that there will be two or more classes of sheep. I think we are ALL God's children and He loves ALL of us. We can never EARN our way into heaven and He does not want any of us to perish. As a child of God I can not imagine him treating His other children differently.
Ok, enough of that. I don't want to over burden you. I appreciate all that you do. I still am not sure about the position of the jw's on the 144,000 and if they believe that only 144,000 will be in heaven. I believe the 144,000 will be in heaven, and the great crowd will be in heaven. The great crown is standing before the throne and before the Lamb. That is in rev 7:9. I believe this throne and this Lamb to be the same throne and Lamb that the 144,000 are standing before, and that all are in heaven. I have found nothing in the bible to state otherwise. Does that make sense to you?
Thanks again my friend. I truly appreciate your kindness and willingness to help. Please so your own research and stuff, and not just take what I say as the truth. I encourage everything that I deal with to look it up themselves. I am far from perfect and make mistakes.
God Bless you... Have a great and blessed day..... cliff
Answer I am truly sorry to disappoint you Cliff but I have to say that we may just have to agree to disagree here. It does not make sense to me for there to be a government or Kingdom in Heaven with no subjects to rule over. It is pointless. I know you may think that the government would rule over the angels, but that is not what Jesus came to the earth for. Jehovah is and always has been the ruler of the universe including all of heaven as his dwelling place and the angelic creatures.
Jesus loved people. He came to the earth and lived and died in order for us to gain back what Adam and Eve had lost, namely everlasting life. As humans our purpose was to be caretakers of this earth, to fill it and make the entire surface of the earth into a paradise just like the garden of Eden. Jehovah gave us so much to do here millions of years would never be enough for us to discover all of the fascinating things the earth is full of. It is immaculate, incredible and full of animal life and plant life that we as humans know exactly how to care for.
So Jesus became the greater Adam. When Adam sinned as a perfect human the balance was lost, and when Jesus gave up his perfect life the balance was regained. Both were tempted by Satan but only Jesus showed he was faithful. So the chance at everlasting life became a possibility for all humans alive today because of our King in heaven Jesus Christ! And that is a logical answer to why he had to come to earth.
I also wanted to explain to you what I believe when the Bile says there will be a a "new heavens" and a "new earth". It does not make sense in 1 Peter for the scripture to say the perfect heavens will pass away.....hmmmmm? Why would the perfect heavens need to pass away? They have already been cleansed of Satan and his demons. The earth is all that needs to be cleansed now. So instead it makes much more sense in symbolic terms. In many scriptures it likens human governments to "heavens" or "mountains" usually high and large intimidating examples. Also it likens people to the "sea", the "world" and also the "earth". So when we read that scripture in 2 Peter 3:10: "Yet Jehovah's day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered." it makes so much more sense when it is read to mean that Satan and his demons who rule this earth right now will be destroyed, dissolved and no longer in power.(Satan could have never offered all the kingdoms to Jesus at Matthew 4:8&9 if he was not ruling over them.) There will then be a new heavenly government for a new people and it will show what is truly in their hearts, without Satan's influence. This is a very loving gift from God. It gives everyone a second chance and everyone will have to know he is the only true God and his salvation will be made known as it always has in the past(2 Chronicles 20:17).
I definitely believe that there are only 144,000 people who are able to go to heaven as spirit creatures and rule over us as kings and priests for one thousand years as is explained clearly in Revelation 20:6: "Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection, over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years". That first resurrection takes no time at all, as soon as they die they are resurrected to heaven. But the ones who will soon be resurrected to the earth are still asleep in death right now as explained both in Ecclesiastes 9:5: "For the living are conscious that they will die, but the dead are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun." and at Psalms 146:3 & 4: "Do not put your trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground, In that day his thoughts do perish." When these are resurrected in the second resurrection, they will have the opportunity to live for a thousand years and grow to perfection. I believe in these scriptures and the clear meaning of them. My conviction is strong. It makes perfect sense to me.
