Jehovah`s Witness/To DW and the JW lady...
Well, I am pleased that my re-posting of an article that I wrote on the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the tomb, in bodily form, has gotten people to think. I would expect Christians to rejoice in what our Savior did for us, and JW’s who are intent on denying Bible truths, to be all up in arms, as was the JW lady who came completely unglued in her writing to DW about my article. Basically, the reaction is exactly what I would have expected.
Unfortunately, this dear JW lady only showed her complete lack of knowledge of what she is talking about, and that JWs really are in the dark about what the Bible really teaches on subjects like this, which are vital to their eternal life.
I wish to quote a few excerpts from both her, and from DW, in his reply, with a brief comment after each one.
JW LADY….“I'm just writing to say how silly and ridiculous Derrick Holland sounds in trying to make you and Bro. Grunbaum seem like you don't know what you are talking about regarding Jesus being raised as a spirit.”
Actually, I didn’t do that. They did that to themselves. Grunbaum, by agreeing to the debate, and them promptly quitting without answering the Scriptural points, and DW, by doing his usual rattling on about nothing, and giving no Scripture at all that refutes anything.
JW LADY….“He actually thinks because the tomb was empty that that means without a doubt that Jesus was raised with the same body?”
Yep, that’s what I think. But mainly, because that is exactly what the Bible teaches. With all due respect, dear lady, but why didn’t you give us some Scriptures in your writing that would show otherwise? I didn’t see a single Scripture anywhere in your lengthy tirade.
JW LADY….“I didn't even really read his rantings because they are ridiculous and without reason.”
Funny how you could know they are “ridiculous and without reason”, without having read them. And you people wonder why those on the outside of the Organization call you all “brainwashed”? You actually would need to read something, or at least be familiar with some of the arguments it contains, before you can make a qualified judgment like that.
JW LADY….“Doesn't common sense say that God made sure Jesus' body was not there, and that is why an angel was there instead? Why would his body be left there to rot and decay, when the Bible says his body would not see corruption. “
No, “common sense” would tell us that Jesus’ body ROSE from the tomb, and THAT is the reason it wasn’t there. And you know that angel you mentioned? Well, that is precisely the very reason that this angel GAVE as to why the body of Jesus wasn’t there. You might wish to read Matthew 28:5-6, for proof of that. Its interesting that you would reference this angel, yet ignore what the angel said as to why His body was missing.
And no one said it was left there to rot or decay. That statement alone shows you know nothing about what you are talking about, in regards to Christian doctrine. ALL Christians would affirm that His body rose from the dead, and was NEVER in danger of rotting or decaying. What a ridiculous statement to make.
JW LADY….“So just because it was removed, just like God is the one who buried Moses body and no one knew where it was or saw it again, God removed Jesus' body. And to sit there and say the only reason his body was not there was because he took it back is just very dense.”
Well, the problem you have here is 2-fold…First, how do you know that God removed Moses’ body? BECAUSE the SCRIPTURE SAYS SO. Real simple, isn’t it? But how do you know that God removed Jesus’ body? Especially since the Scripture says no such thing. If you want the answer to what happened to Jesus’ body, why don’t you do the same thing you did to find out about Moses’ body…read the Scripture. Yes, that’s what I said…Put down your WT fairly tale publications, and pick up your Bible for a change. You might learn something.
The second major problem you have here, is related to what I just stated above…The reason we teach His body was missing because it had risen, no matter how dense you may think it is, is because that is exactly what the Scripture teaches…in a number of places.
So, it is really sad that you would call the Scriptures, Jesus, the disciples, and the angel at the tomb “dense”. But that is what you just did.
JW LADY….“As was explained, a ransom is not paid unless something is given up or lost. Fight as one will but you can't change that by twisting and turning the scriptures to fit what you want it to.”
Well ma’am, if you would like to quit running to DW, who cannot help you, and write to me with WHICH Scriptures you think I have twisted and turned, then by all means, I will look forward to your correspondence. Let’s open our Bibles, and see exactly who it is that twists and turns the Scriptures…Me and other Christians like me, or you and your religion.
And that is where you would have benefited from reading the debate with your beloved Grunbaum, as this question of taking back the ransom was covered quite extensively.
JW LADY….“Derrick is saying that Jesus really didn't have to die in the first place because he really never gave up his body for us, he just kept it.”
Uhm no, that is not what Derrick is saying. Why do you too resort to untruths, like DW and Rando stoop to? Surely you don’t want to displease Jehovah God by being dishonest, do you?
JW LADY….“So basically, Derrick is saying God and Jesus are both into Sadist and Masochist who like to see and feel people get scourged and impaled for no reason. If he took back his body that was supposed to be the ransom that bought back what Adam lost, it had to correspond to Adam's perfect body, then Derrick is saying that all the suffering Jesus went through was all an act.”
Uhm, nope, didn’t say that either. It wasn’t for NO REASON…it was for our redemption and salvation. You certainly have a very distorted understanding of Christian doctrine. Are you honestly this ignorant of our doctrine, or are you willfully attempting to mislead here? Is that what happens when you fail to study your Bible, and rely on men in Brooklyn for direction, instead?“
JW LADY….“Does he think that Jesus couldn't materialize into a body that had flesh and bones to show Thomas who doubted it was him, again how did the angels do it?”
Its not a question of what He “could” do…it’s a question of what the Bible says He DID do. And the Scriptures are simply not on your side in this. There is not one single Scripture anywhere that indicates He materialized a body that was not really His resurrected body, with the intent to make Thomas believe something. Nor is there a Scripture anywhere that indicates that Jehovah “removed”, “dissolved”, or “disintegrated” Jesus’ body into thin air.
If there were, don’t you think your beloved DW would have given it? So, why didn’t he?
JW LADY….“So now Derrick has to come back with, "well uh, he had cut the head off of someone else and sewed it on to his body so that's why his face was different, but uh, he still had the same body, yeah..that's it!" No Derrick, it's not it and you can't make it be it, no matter what you say or do! Jesus was not resurrected with the same body. Give it up!”
LOL! Ma’am, there is no reason to go all to pieces. This is a FRIENDLY discussion. No need to lie.
Could you please provide the link, or quote, where I made a statement anything close to somebody “cutting off a head and sewing it on to Jesus’ body”?
Or, are you simply setting up a false “straw man” argument, by IMPLYING that I believe something, and then saying “No Derrick, its not it!”?
Uh, I never said that WAS “it”. You did. I would appreciate it if you would kindly not put words into my mouth, and then proceed to go off the deep end over something YOU said.
Another typical “rational” writing from a JW “lover of truth”, I see.
JW LADY…“Same body means same face period! and it wasn't the same one.”
Thank you for that EXTREMELY valuable bit of information. And yes, it was the same one. And the Scriptures are quite clear on it.
JW LADY….“So Derrick is saying what he says over shadows what the Bible clearly says.”
No, actually what I have said is exactly what the Bible said. In fact, the Bible is where I got my statements. That is why my writing on the subject contains FAR more Scripture than your rants, which contain NONE, and more than DW’s, who like you, completely ignores what the Bible says, and twists, turns, and distorts in whatever means necessary, to uphold the ridiculous notions of the Watchtower Society.
And I don’t believe you can back up ANY of your statements here, with anything the Bible “clearly says”.
JW LADY….“So what Derrick is the author of the Bible now? I don't think so…”
Yeah, me neither. But let’s be quite clear…Neither are you, neither is DW, Grunbaum, Rando, or ANY of the men who sit on the GB in Brooklyn, NY.
And again, I issue you a very polite and respectful invitation to open your Bible, and we will calmly and rationally see exactly who it is that is adhering to the Bible, and who is twisting it.
JW LADY….“Name me one human that can make their face look totally different whenever they want to. Let's see today I think I'm going to be a hairy cowboy with a mustache and beard. Tomorrow I'm going to be Queen Ann, and the next day, maybe Queen Elizabeth, or how about I change my face to being Jimmey Cricket!!”
Well, I’ll admit this is one of the most Biblically sound examples of exegesis and scholarly understanding I have ever witnessed! However, it still has its flaws…
I find this humorous in a way…You are now denying that Jesus can change His face whenever He wants (and again, nobody is making the claim that He did), yet you also, in the SAME WRITING, are telling us that He DID precisely that, by taking a previously UNRECOGNIZABLE form, and CHANGING that appearance by MATERIALIZING a body for Thomas that He COULD recognize.
Now ma’am, which is it? You first argue that He did exactly that very thing, and now you claim He couldn’t do it?
You are one confused lady.
But of course, it’s a moot point, because nobody is claiming that Jesus had a different head, face, or anything else. There are actually VERY good reasons for Jesus being unrecognized those few instances, and they are found in the Scriptures themselves, and they do not require some hair-brained idea that Jesus was a spirit, when He Himself plainly said He wasn’t.
I simply felt it necessary to show that you contradicted yourself.
JW LADY….“Even if God would have resurrected him to have a human body, it still wasn't the one he died with now was it. There is just no way he can make it be the same.”
I don’t have to “make it” be the same. Jesus said it would be the same, in John 2:19-21.
You are arguing with Jesus, not with me. What a pity that you weren’t there when He said this, because you and DW could have set him straight on that one.
JW LADY….“ Derrick's rantings are hilarious, I could have a field day with his silly reasonings.”
LOL…Lady, did you re-read YOUR writing before you sent it?
JW LADY….“Derrick and his friend Satan can't win against Jehovah and Bible Truths!! He needs to just give it up already! He wants to be right so bad he can't even see himself tripping all over the place, making himself look more and more ridiculous then the last.”
See my above question….
Now, some excerpts from DW’s reply to her….
DW….”You know everything you said is spot on.”
Wow, just wow.…But again, this is the same guy who said Rando’s interpretations of the Bible are “brilliant”, so what would we expect?
Now, let us remember before going any further, that it was the great Bible teacher DW himself, who so lovingly educated the entire reading audience about the tactics of those who are under Satanic control. I believe it was HE who told us, that the people in that shape, utilize the following:
2. Character attacks
3. Failure to attack the message, and instead, attack the messenger.
Funny, DW utilizes these very tactics more than anybody, and does so in his reply.
Wonder why he didn’t lovingly tell his “sister” that she was off the deep-end, or at the very least, misinformed and over-reacting? Instead, he tells her that her nonsense was “spot on”, when he himself knows better.
AND ON A SIDE NOTE, DW….Do not write me a “private” message again, asking me all sweet and nice, to change my profile to what YOU want it to say. My profile is completely up front, and fine the way it is. Instead, you need to worry about the lies you and your friends tell on here, and the fact that you are rude, obnoxious, and unchristian in the way you talk to people, and correct THOSE problems, rather than worry about what is in my profile.
Simply put…You worry about things on your end, and I’ll handle things on my end.
DW….”Actually when I started reading your letter I was gonna mention this point here
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< So just because it was removed, just like God is the one who buried Moses body and no one knew where it was or saw it again, God removed Jesus' body.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
But you beat me to it!!!! grrrrrrrrr, hahaha.
No but on a serious note of course it goes to show that Jehovah does what he needs to do to fulfill his purpose and disposing of Jesus body was to fulfill this scripture.”
Well DW, I would like to give you another chance. Because what you tried to do here is sort of clever, but it doesn’t work. I THINK the idea is, you are supposed to have SCRIPTURE for statements like these.
Now, I read your attempts to use Acts 2:27, 31 to make it say what you want it to, but try as you might, there just isn’t any reference at all to a “disposing” of any kind. The entire point of that passage was lost on you, that the very reason His body didn’t see corruption, is because it ROSE in 3 days, not DISSOLVED. Actually, verse 23 and 24 of the text actually TELL us that, as does verse 30. But never mind that, we have a WT teaching to uphold here.
Now, I have numerous Scriptures for my contention, but I would love to see yours.
Now here is your chance, DW….Please provide the readers of Allexperts with just one Scripture, which mentions that Jesus’ body was ANY of the following:
3. Removed by some other means, than by being raised
SURELY we can expect the Bible to mention this at least once, since it is such an important matter, relevant to our salvation.
Folks, we are FINALLY going to see the Scripture that we have been waiting YEARS to see, and this great English Bible teacher who “mauls” those who oppose him, is going to provide it for us. We are now, for the first time, about to see where the Bible tells us that Jesus was dissolved, disintegrated, or otherwise removed.
Okay DW, don’t disappoint us….The Scripture, please….(drum roll)
DW….”As you say the gardener , when he appeared to Thomas etc the fact is everytime he appeared they didn't recognize him, why?? It's an obvious answer.”
Yes DW, its an obvious answer. And the answers are found right there in the texts themselves, and don’t require some hair-brained, unbiblical nonsense about Jesus being a spirit walking around, to explain them. You would do well to read the Bible you claim to teach, without some literature and publications right there beside you, telling you what you just read.
DW….”So when Derrick say's "WHAT DOES THE EMPTY TOMB MEAN FOR JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES TODAY"???
My answer is, that God disposed of Jesus body to fulfill the scriptures, it's not a hard answer.”
Well DW, your “answer” didn’t come with any Scriptures accompanying it. Why not?
Know what I think? I think if you HAD a Scripture, I would not have had to challenge you in my above comments, to provide it. I think you WOULD have provided it before, and also, in your answer to this misguided JW sister of yours.
So, your “answer” is unbiblical, and blasphemous nonsense. I maintain that Jesus’ body rose from the tomb, and I have Scripture. You maintain His body was dissolved, and you have none. So, in that regard, I’d rather be me, than you.
First, how do we know that God didn’t “dispose of Jesus’ body to fulfill the Scriptures”?
Simple…There are NO Scriptures that “dissolving” His body would fulfill, but there are MANY that it NOT resurrecting, would leave unfulfilled.
Secondly, there is simply no mention of Jesus’ body ever being dissolved. To believe your nonsense, many clear statements from Jesus Himself, the angel at the tomb, and the disciples, have to be ignored.
So yes, for YOU, it is a “hard answer”. Because you have no answer you can back up with the Scriptures.
And THAT, my English friend, is why you resort to your silly and childish attacks, and why your friend Rando writes YOU questions for me to answer, instead of writing me. He knows the Scripture for a “dissolving” doesn’t exist, and so do you, and so do I.
Why don’t you do the RIGHT thing for a change, and tell your poor JW sister that it doesn’t exist, as well.
Now, on a final note, I wish to address something from DW’s reply to another questioner who called him out, which amounts to nothing short of blasphemy against the Savior, Jesus Christ. This man, no doubt because of the spirit which is controlling him, mocks and blasphemes the beautiful Bible teaching of our Savior’s resurrection. I am referring to the following statement from DW, which I will address now, and show it for what it is….
DW….”According to Christendom he's Jesus the Zombie body swapper!!”
Only one other time have I heard a JW use such a blasphemous term to refer to the risen Christ, as a “zombie”. The other one is an individual called The MadJW, who has been on numerous JW forums, who has even been repudiated by the WT Society itself, as a person who should be avoided. That is the only other person I have seen call Jesus a “zombie”, in reference to a bodily resurrection. Now, DW has lowered himself to that, as well.
I wonder if this blasphemer knows that the “zombie Jesus” mockery, is actually, and commonly, utilized by ATHEISTS and haters of Christianity, to ridicule the belief that Jesus rose from the dead? And here, we have a JW using the same vile argument. That speaks volumes.
Now, perhaps DW would benefit if we would DEFINE the word “zombie” for him. In fact, I will give a couple of definitions from various sources….
First definition that popped up on Google….
”1. Originally, a snake-deity of or deriving from West Africa and Haiti.
2. A soulless corpse said to be revived by witchcraft, esp. in certain African and Caribbean religions.”
”the body of a dead person given the semblance of life, but mute and will-less, by a supernatural force, usually for some evil purpose.”
” a: the supernatural power that according to voodoo belief may enter into and reanimate a dead body
b: a will-less and speechless human in the West Indies capable only of automatic movement who is held to have died and been supernaturally reanimated”
“A deceased human being who has partially returned to life due to undeterminable causes. The brain retains base facilities, namely gross motor function. In its near-mindless state, it grasps no remains of emotion, personality, or sensation of pain. In rare cases, some of the reanimated have reflexively preformed routine activities from their past lives.
The rotting bodies of the undead operate on a fraction of the level at which our bodies normally function. Circulatory, respiratory, and digestive systems are unaffected by reanimation. Labored breathing, choking, and moaning are reflexive but no oxygen is carried through the blood. The nervous system functions primarily within the brain and brain stem. Sensory reception is minimal at best and seemingly unecessary in the pursuit of prey. The undead are incapable of fatigue and will persist at any cost. They will even crawl when their legs have been removed. Even if the head is removed from the body, it will continue to live. The only way to stop the reanimated is to destroy the brain. To prevent reanimation in the recently departed, decapitate the corpse and burn the body.
The only observable action a zombie takes part in is killing living creatures, especially humans, and eating them.”
Well, the above definitions should suffice, and show us a couple of things. First, that DW does not know what a zombie is, and that he would dare to make a mockery of the Lord Jesus Christ’s bodily resurrection, a Bible teaching.
Now, let us look at the above definitions of “zombie”, and see if Jesus bears any resemblance to them….
Starting with the first one, we can dismiss it because Jesus obviously was not a snake deity from W. Africa or Haiti. Nor was He a soulless corpse, revived by witchcraft, in the Caribbean or Africa.
Rather, He was raised by God’s own power, and lives to die no more. Romans 14:9 DOES say that Jesus “revived”, however…
“For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.”
But He didn’t “revive” through witchcraft, but by the power of God, and He is the Lord of the dead and the living as a result.
Quite different than the picture that DW portrays.
Now, on to the next definition from DICTIONARY.COM….Jesus was not given the “semblance” of life. He WAS and IS alive. Nor was He “mute and willless”…No, He spoke quite clearly after His resurrection, and made His WILL quite clear for us, as well.
Do zombies speak, DW?
Nor was His resurrection for some “evil purpose”. Rather, it is His victory over death that gives salvation to all who come to Him in faith. I’d call that a very GOOD purpose.
So again, DW’s comparison fails miserably.
Now, let’s look at MERRIAM-WEBSTER….Well, we can safely conclude that Jesus’ resurrection had nothing to do with voodoo, nor was His body “reanimated”. In fact, that is the simple definition of “zombie”…a reanimated corpse.
Of course, it goes right over DW’s head, that a zombie is STILL DEAD, but is merely reanimated by supernatural means. To help him further, let us now define the word “corpse” for him…
Corpse….”a dead body”.
Did you get that, DW? Let’s define it again…A DEAD BODY.
Now, the very second Jesus’ body rose from the tomb ALIVE, He CEASED to be a corpse! Since a corpse is a DEAD body, then Jesus would not be a corpse once His body ws alive. Therefore, since He was no longer a CORPSE, then He could not be a zombie, which IS a “reanimated corpse”.
Really simple to understand.
Now, back to MERRIAM-WEBSTER. According to this definition, neither was Jesus “willless or speechless”, and was certainly capable of more than “automatic movement”. In fact, there is every indication that Jesus was able to move about as He saw fit, and without restraint.
Now, the definition from URBAN DICTIONARY was quite long, but had a number of points worth mentioning, to show the foolishness of DW’s blasphemy….
1. Jesus did not PARTIALLY return to life, due to an undetermined cause. No, He rose to live forever as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and the cause was, He was raised bodily by the power of God.
2. He was not mindless, He had emotion, and personality. He spoke, showed compassion and forgiveness (not a trait of zombies), and displayed knowledge of what was going on around Him.
3. Nor was His body “rotting”, and it functioned on a much HIGHER level than previously before, which is the opposite of the traits of a zombie.
4. Unlike zombies, a blow to the head or to the brain, would not kill the resurrected Christ. It would not affect Him in the least.
The body of a zombie can be killed again, but the resurrected and glorified body of Jesus Christ, cannot.
2 Corinthians 13:4- “For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.”
Heb. 7:25- “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”
Rev. 1:18- “I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore”
5. Nor did the resurrected Jesus kill anybody or anything, and never did He once attempt to eat a human being, which ALL fictional zombies do.
Furthermore, Jesus’ resurrected body did not continue the process of decay. In fact, His resurrected body was INCORRUPTIBLE.
No, Jesus is not a zombie. Jesus was resurrected, not just reanimated. In no sense is Jesus still dead. He is perfectly and eternally alive.
DW, you know how upset you get when you think someone is attacking your religion, or your brethren? Well, that is sort of how I get, when the likes of you, stoops to blaspheming my Lord and Savior. And when you take something as important as His bodily resurrection, which He Himself foretold, and mock Him by calling Him a zombie, you cross the line.