Jehovah`s Witness/Okay, DW....

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Question
DW, that was one of the sorriest attempts to dodge a plain passage of Scripture that I have seen in quite awhile.  My response to your tantrum is below...

Answer
Okay DW, I think its time you and me got a few things straight.  Not trying to be argumentative or contentious, but you seem to over-estimate your authority here.  I assure you, you have none.  First off, I don’t need you to tell me what is “best for me”.  I am a grown man, and I am quite capable of deciding for myself what is best.  Now, you may be used to having people in your congregation jump when you speak, but that doesn’t work here, and especially not with me.  

In other words, you are not above anyone else here, and no one here is your subordinate.

Now, I have no intention of “shutting my mouth”, as you think you can command.  And I will say it again…This is not YOUR board, nor is it OUR (JWs only) board.  It is a PUBLIC board for the purpose of getting INFORMATION about your religion.  Now, I clearly outlined for you the actual terms of Allexperts, which do not in any way require that a person be a member of your religion, to give information about it.  I am sorry that those requirements were beyond your comprehension.  You have no ownership of this board, you set none of the rules, you determine none of the policy, and you have NO say as to who answers questions here.  Got it?

The quicker you figure that out, the quicker you can stop making yourself look foolish.  

Futhermore, I did not ask you WHEN I signed up for this forum, nor will I ask your permission to stay.  I will leave when I feel that is what God wants me to do, and when I decide it is time.  Not before.  I assure you that your orders, whining, crying, lying, and tantrum throwing, will have nothing to do with it.


Now, a sure sign that a guy is being shown up, is when he constantly has to tell everyone (and HIMSELF), how he is “crushing” his opponent.  If you were, you wouldn’t have to constantly reassure yourself, as you do.  It would be evident.  But about the only people who believe that, are the people who are as deceived as you are, by your false doctrine.  The Detroit Tigers and all of their fans can claim all day long that they just won the World Series, but the fact is, they were shut down completely by the San Francisco Giants, and no amount of claiming otherwise can change that.  

Fact-oriented people can see that you STILL have not given an answer to the questions, nor have you given us a single Scripture which supports your false idea of Jesus being “dissolved”.
In fact, you actually had to come back and ADMIT there is NO Scripture that says this is what happened.  Well, no surprise there.  But then, you actually went on to say that there are no Scriptures that teach He rose bodily either.  Uhm, yes there are.

You know, DW, it is almost funny to watch you and Rando babbling on and on about why I don’t answer 1 Peter 3:18, 1 Corinthians 15:45, etc., and then turn right around and admit you didn’t read the article on the resurrection.  Well, BOTH of those Scriptures are discussed in detail, in either the article, or the discussion with Grunbaum, along with the silly notion that a bodily resurrection is taking back the ransom.

Already covered, and already refuted.  And poor Rando…Can’t you help him?  He’s hearing those voices again, which keep telling him I said that Jesus went immediately to Heaven after His death.  Now, I won’t go through the trouble of asking him to provide a link or a quote from me where I ever said that, because we all know how that goes…the poor guy never does provide proof of any of the lies he tells. He just gets so flustered and upset, that he makes up as many lies as he can.  No WONDER he won’t debate!

See if you can get him to take his medication, or something.  

Now, you said…”Is to just keep your mouth shut you embarrass yourself more and more with every passing comment. Unfortunately for you I had a bit of spare time today so I read allexperts and came across your post. So I decided to respond, here it goes!!!”

ME:  I assure you that I am not the least bit embarrassed.  To do that, you will have to give a REAL answer to John 2:19-21, and explain FROM SCRIPTURE what happened to Jesus’ body (you know, like I have been doing?).

And I am very glad you decided to respond, DW, because you showed ONCE AGAIN how you have no Scriptural answer to back up the statements you have made about Jesus being dissolved.  Instead, all you CAN do (other than believe the Scriptures), is to offer these pitiful explanations to try and explain away statements in Scripture that are SO simple, a child can understand them.  

Now, if you think what you posted in regards to John 2:19-21 is an “answer” or an adequate “reply”, then you are less smart than even I gave you credit for.
 

You wrote….”I'm not gonna address the constant whining and teeth gnashing on your part but what I will address is your lack of scriptural knowledge seeing as that's the only relevant point.

ME:  Let me translate…”You have proven my Brother Rando a liar time and again, and since I can’t come out and SAY that he has lied, even though I know it myself, I have to try and turn it around and make YOU the liar, Derrick”.

That is basically what DW is saying, when he refers to the “whining and teeth gnashing”.  Actually, DW, you are the one whining and gnashing your teeth.  Let’s see…Who is it that is complaining about the presence of another expert in this forum…you, or me?  Who is it that is about to rupture a blood vessel because his false doctrine has been exposed…you, or me?  Who is it that was challenged, and FAILED, to provide just ONE Scripture to support his silly notion about Jesus being dissolved…you, or me?

Nah, I’d say you are doing all the “weeping and gnashing of teeth” here.

Now, if you think your comments on John 2:19-21 solved your problem, then you are sadly mistaken.  Because your analogy fails miserably…

You wrote…”Now as I said to my questioner he said the TEMPLE of his body,not his body but the TEMPLE of his body, he also said this.”

ME:  As has already been shown, FLESHY bodies are also referred to as a “temple” in the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20-  “What? know ye not that your BODY is the TEMPLE of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.”


I find it interesting that you immediately try and leave the context of John 2, and jump over to another Scripture in another context altogether, to wiggle out from under what John 2 plainly teaches.  Now, comparing Scripture with Scripture can certainly be useful, as long as you DON’T MISUSE IT, which you did.

Not only did you try and dodge the obvious statements in John 2, proving that Jesus WAS in fact, talking about His fleshly body as a “temple”, but you completely missed the point in Matthew 12:6, as well.

Your comment was….”Matt 12:

6 "But I tell YOU that something greater than the temple is here"

So he's referring to himself here as a temple , now unless you want to claim he was talking about his bloodless body being a temple or even his body if you want to stretch the point like this:

"But I tell YOU that something greater than the temple(my bloodless body/body)is here"


ME:  Where in this you see Him “referring to Himself as a temple”, is a mystery.  He said no such thing in this passage.  Read it again, DW….In context, Jesus was replying to the Pharisees who were objecting to the disciples picking corn to eat on the Sabbath.  Jesus replied by pointing out how the OT priests had profaned the temple BUILDING on the Sabbath day, and that He Himself was GREATER than the temple BUILDING, so their criticism was unwarranted, because they were so worried about the Sabbath being broken, but they didn’t realize that Jesus was the Lord of the Sabbath.

Nice try on trying to make that explain away the words “this” and “it”, in John 2:19-21.  Is that all you have, DW?


Then, you wrote….”Now the point is the answer to my questioner is the correct answer,all I actually needed to say was this to make your argument fail.

"If the temple of Jerusalem was destroyed would Jesus have to build it back with exactly the same bricks, mortar and building materials for it to be the same temple"?? Or would it still be the temple of Jerusalem??

"If it was tore down and Jesus didn't rebuild it with exactly the same materials, would the Jews then say. "No sorry it's not the same temple, you where telling lies"??

"When Jesus said those words do you think the Jews where thinking he was going to build it back with the same materials it had before it was tore down or would they think different one's would be sufficent for his words to come true"??”


ME:  Well OF COURSE it wouldn’t be the SAME one, DW!  Is this a serious question?

If my house burns to the ground, and I build another house back on the same spot, it is STILL not the same house.  I may say that I “rebuilt” it, but everyone knows that it is not the same house.  It may be on the same spot, it may look the same, but it is NOT the same house.  No matter how much you may try to say otherwise.

Now, the problem you have, is that Jesus clearly said that the SAME temple that was destroyed, would be the SAME temple that would be built again.  

And NO…You STILL never answered that point.   

Could you show us the passage where Jesus ever said that He would rebuild the same exact temple again, in reference to the TEMPLE building?   It is quite clear that He is referring to His body in John 2:21, not the temple building.

You seem to forget that the Jews actually MISUNDERSTOOD what Jesus was saying in John 2, because they THOUGHT He was referring to the actual building, but He was not…Verse 21 clearly says He was referring to the “temple of His body”.  

Now, WHAT was destroyed for 3 days, DW?  C’mon, tell us…It was His PHYSICAL BODY, right?  So tell us, DW…

WAS THE SAME TEMPLE THAT WAS DESTROYED FOR 3 DAYS, RAISED AGAIN?

Simple question.  We have the simple answer from Scripture.  Now, let’s just see how much more dancing around and Scripture twisting that you are willing to do, to keep your false doctrine propped up.

I quote you once again…”"If the temple of Jerusalem was destroyed would Jesus have to build it back with exactly the same bricks, mortar and building materials for it to be the same temple"?? Or would it still be the temple of Jerusalem??

"If it was tore down and Jesus didn't rebuild it with exactly the same materials, would the Jews then say. "No sorry it's not the same temple, you where telling lies"??”


ME:  Here is the problem you have staring you down, DW…Jesus said it WOULD be the same one.  Obviously, His physical body was not made with bricks, mortal, or building materials.  It was made of flesh.  So, for it to be the SAME one, it would have to be flesh…period.  

And lo and behold, that is EXACTLY how Jesus described it in Luke 24:39.…

“Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”


Now, you and your little JW lady can talk all you want to about “temporary materializations”, but the Scriptures don’t lie.  Nor do they say a word about Him “materializing”.  He said BEFORE His death that His “temple” (body) would be destroyed, and IT would rise again in 3 days.  He said AFTER His resurrection He was NOT a spirit, but had flesh and bones.  The angel said AFTER His resurrection that the body was not there, FOR it was risen.

Yet, when we ask for even ONE Scripture from you about some imaginary “dissolving” into thin air, even YOU have to admit the Bible doesn’t say that happened.  You just suppose it did, because you won’t believe what it DOES say.

And I don’t believe it was mere coincidence that it was the RESURRECTION that reminded Jesus’ disciples of His prediction in John 2:19-21.  This is clearly seen from verse 22...

“When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.”


Just WHY was it, DW, that the RESURRECTION just happened to be the thing that reminded them of this prediction?  If the “temple” refers to His spiritual body of believers, why didn’t they recall these words while sitting around in church during a service, and say…”Wow, now we understand what Jesus meant! He was talking about establishing the Christian congregation!”???????

No, it was the RESURRECTION that brought these words to mind, proving beyond all doubt that Jesus’ prediction was regarding the death of His PHYSICAL body, and its RISING again after 3 days.

Verse 22 says that after this, the disciples “believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus said.”

Why won’t you, and the rest of the JWs who deny this clear Bible truth?


Now, so far, you have struck out in your attempt to rid yourself of the obvious implications of this verse.  

Try again…No DW, I’m not the one being shown up, talking foolish, spewing nonsense, or getting crushed.  Nor am I the one who is obviously about to explode, here.

Now, if you can show us once and for all where the Bible teaches that Jesus was dissolved, and why “this“ and “it“ don’t really mean “this“ and “it“, then by all means, have at it.  

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Derrick Holland

Expertise

I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

Organizations
I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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