Jehovah`s Witness/Your Thoughts on the Septuagint
QUESTION: Hello Bro. Benyamin, you have helped me out once before and I was advised by Bro.DW (who helps me out on occasions) that you are a student of Hebrew and Greek.
I am not a Jehovah's Witness but I consider them to be the only people who make sense of God's word and I hope to take up a Bible study in the near future.
At present I am researching the use of the Tetragrammaton in the Septuagint and I understand from the new JW site that there are extant fragments of the Greek Septuagint that date from the first century B.C.E. They clearly show Jehovah’s name, represented in the Greek text by the four Hebrew letters יהוה (YHWH),
From my research I know that the NWT bible is widely criticised for including God's name Jehovah in the NT. A criticism which I strongly disagree with as Jesus when reading Isaiah 61:1 in the synagogue must have spoken the name.
Furthermore when giving his apostles an example of how to pray he used the words "Our Father who is in heaven, HALLOWED BY THY NAME."
My contention is that if Jesus uses the name then surely all professed Christians should use it also. The reason I ask for your advise is that I wish to respond to a comment from a Trinitarian who says the following....
"For Christians, the name Jesus sometimes replaces the name Yahweh" and gives Romans 10:9-13 in support.
The person continues; "But more often, Jesus is bracketed with the Father, sharing in the authority and majesty of God e.g. Acts 7:55,56; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 5:5" (these verses are obviously taken from the KJV)
You will definately be aware that most of those verses show that Jesus is a seperate entity from the Father. (the mind boggles)
However, my main concern is regarding the Septuagint and any information or advice you can provide. I found this site during my research and if you can find the time to assess it, I would be most grateful.
ANSWER: You are very astute to understand that when Jesus read from the scroll he didn't say as King James render:
King James Version (KJV)
61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me
It's no way on earth anyone can convince me he as a Jew said "Lord God" when he seen the Tetragrammaton,it's just no way.
Of course Church people will say the opposite which shows the extent of their bible knowledge.
All the Devil has to do is teach he said lord God in the churches and that makes it right.
It's clear the Jwes read from it,as proof notice this,Stephen said:
(Acts 7:14) 14 So Joseph sent out and called Jacob his father and all his relatives from that place, to the number of seventy-five souls. . .
The thing is the Hebrew text in Genesis chapter 46 says that the number of Joseph’s relatives was seventy.
(Genesis 46:27) . . .. All the souls of the house of Jacob who came into Egypt were seventy. . .
The Septuagint uses the number as seventy five,no question they used and quoted from the Septuagint
The Churches of Christendom teach the opposite of the bible,like the comment:
"For Christians, the name Jesus sometimes replaces the name Yahweh" and gives Romans 10:9-13 in support.
His support is flawred
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
(Romans 10:13) 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved. . .
See this is the reason why most believers in God will not be saved ,they put Jesus ahead of Jehovah.
(Deuteronomy 6:15) . . .for Jehovah your God in your midst is a God exacting exclusive devotion. . .
Exodus 20- (King James Version
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God,
God is jealous when someone gives to another something that rightly belongs to Him.
How do we know if he said the Lord or Jehovah in this text:
Because he was quoting from :
(Joel 2:32) 32 And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; . . .
Remember he was not reading Romans 10:9-13 like we are ,just shows how ignorant Church people are and will be killed by God for rejecting the truth.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
32 And it hath come to pass, Every one who calleth in the name of Jehovah is delivered,
Prophet Benyamin Grünbaum
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QUESTION: Re: Your thoughts on the Septuagint.
Hello again Bro Benyamin and thank you for your excellent answer which makes sense of the scriptures I mentioned.
I would be most grateful if you could give me as much information you possess on the Septuagint. As an ex Roman Catholic I never learned much about the Bible and have discovered in recent years that the RC Church and others put more faith in their doctrines, philosophy and traditions than they do in God's word the Bible... the only Book which Jehovah makes himself known to mankind. Indeed Jesus condemned the Jewish religious leaders for putting their traditions before the Scriptures.
At present I am researching the Septuagint and particularly interested in the claim that there are extant fragments which contain the Tetragrammaton.
The following link below seems informative, but because of my lack of knowledge on the matter, I am unable to confirm if it gives an accurate account.
Could you confirm when the Septuagint was written and if Jesus and the apostles would have used it or referred to it.
It is quite a lot to read, but should you be able to find the time to give me your opinion and any extra information on the subject I would be most grateful.
God’s name appears 6,973 times in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Isn’t it strange how a name of such significance in the Old Testament is totally missing in the New Testament.? Something very suspicious there, it is almost like a conspiracy to wipe out God's personal name which he clearly says at Exodus 3:15 "this is my name, a memorial for all time"
I have read many condemnations concerning the use of the name Jehovah in the NWT, but my instinct tells me that using the sacred name makes sense.
Kind regards, Fergus
You have to keep in mind they didn't have the NT like us they just had scrools of the OT.
God’s name did appear in the Septuagint,AND HIS NAME IS NOT WHAT WE WERE TOLD UNTILL JWs CAME.
When Moses ask God what was his name we were told God said:
Douay-Rheims 1899 American
That appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of God Almighty; and my name ADONAI I did not shew them.
English Standard Version
I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty,[a] but by my name the Lord I did not make myself known to them
No question its deception to say Gods name is the lord.Look it up,lord is not a name its a title.
The papyrus fragment Found in Oxyrhynchus, Egypt, and assigned the number 3522, this scrap dates back to the first century C.E.and contains a passage from Job 42:11, 12. The Tetragrammaton, appears in ancient Hebrew characters.
So the question is did the divine name appear in early copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures
“Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible [the Septuagint] which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the N[ew] T[estament] writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text
To save time the following is copied:
The Word of God—Evidences of Authenticity
True or false?—The Bible has been handed down through the ages without alteration.
True or false?—The thousands of variations in Bible manuscripts weaken its claim that it is the Word of God.
BEFORE you answer those questions, consider some information that was presented recently at “The Word of God” Exhibition held in the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin, Ireland.
The tattered, fragmented papyrus pages are wasting away with age. Yet, the Chester Beatty papyri are the most precious manuscripts in the library. They were dug out of a Coptic (Egyptian) graveyard about 1930. “[It was] a discovery,” said Sir Frederic Kenyon, “only to be rivalled by that of the Codex Sinaiticus.”
These handwritten papyrus pages, in codex form, were copied in the second, third, and fourth centuries of our Common Era. “Some,” said Wilfrid Lockwood, the librarian, “may well have been copied within a hundred years of the composition of the original.” (Italics ours.) One codex has the four Gospels and the book of Acts. Another has most of the letters of the apostle Paul, including his letter to the Hebrews.
Copying manuscripts like these was tedious and tiring, and open to error. It was easy to misread a letter or miss a line, however careful the copyist might be. Sometimes the copyist was more interested in getting the substance and meaning of the original than in the exact words. As copies were recopied, mistakes were perpetuated. Textual scholars grouped manuscripts with similar variations into families. These Chester Beatty papyri, the oldest substantial manuscripts of the Greek Bible in existence, gave the scholars an unexpectedly new slant on things, since they fitted into none of the established families.
Before Jesus’ time, and especially following the destruction of Jerusalem (607 B.C.E.) and the subsequent dispersion of the Jews, many handwritten copies of the sacred Hebrew Scriptures were made. About 100 C.E., Jewish authorities used such copies to establish a Hebrew text accepted by orthodox Jews.
They also set out precise rules to try to ensure exact copying of the text. They specified what materials could be used and even the size and spacing of letters, words, lines, and columns. “No word or letter, not even a yod [the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet], must be written from memory,” they said. Thus copyists produced scrolls like the Torah (teaching), comprising the first five books of the Bible, and the book of Esther. Such manuscripts of the Hebrew text, said the exhibition catalog, “exhibit an impressive degree of uniformity.”
How serious were the mistakes that crept into both Hebrew and Christian Greek manuscripts? “It should be stressed,” said Mr. Lockwood, “that the divergences between manuscripts of the Bible are superficial by comparison with those found in the manuscripts of the pagan literature . . . In no case is any point of Christian doctrine affected by scribal corruption.”—Italics ours.
The books of the Bible from before and after Jesus’ time were translated into other languages. One of the oldest of the versions is the Samaritan Pentateuch. The Samaritans were people who occupied the territory of the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel after the king of Assyria took the Israelites into exile (740 B.C.E.). They adopted some features of Jewish worship and accepted only the first five books of the Bible, the Pentateuch. The Samaritan text of these books, written in a form of ancient Hebrew script, has 6,000 variations from the Hebrew text. “Most,” said the exhibition catalog, “are of little importance to the text though of interest as possibly preserving features of ancient pronunciation or grammar.”
In the third century B.C.E., Jewish scholars in Alexandria, Egypt, produced the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew Scriptures, which came to be used by Greek-speaking Jews all over the world. In time the Jews stopped using it, but it became the Bible of the early Christian congregation. When Christian Bible writers quoted from the sacred Hebrew Scriptures, they used the Septuagint. The Chester Beatty papyri of the Hebrew Scriptures include 13 pages of the book of Daniel in the Septuagint.
Later versions of the Bible were produced in languages such as Latin, Coptic, Syriac, and Armenian. One example in the exhibition was a vellum codex of a Coptic version of a portion of the Bible from the sixth or seventh century C.E. How do versions like these help Bible scholars and textual critics? Such versions are usually very literal translations of the Greek manuscripts that the translators used. “If the Greek text on which the translator worked was a good one,” explained Mr. Lockwood, “it is evident that the version will provide important help in the work of recovering the original words of the Greek.”
A very precious, unique exhibit in the library is a commentary by a fourth-century Syrian writer, Ephraem, on the Diatessaron by Tatian. About 170 C.E., Tatian compiled a harmonized account of the life and ministry of Jesus, using extracts from the four Gospels (Diatessaron means “through [the] four”). Because no copies survived, some critics in the last century disputed whether such a harmony of the Gospels ever existed. These critics contended that the four Gospels themselves were not written till the middle of the second century.
In the last hundred years, however, the discovery of translations of the Diatessaron in Armenian and Arabic forced the higher critics to retreat. Then, in 1956, Sir Chester Beatty obtained this unique fifth/sixth century commentary that contains long extracts from Tatian’s original work. “It certainly scotched the notion that the four Gospels were not in circulation in that era,” said Mr. Lockwood.
“The Word of God” Exhibition was a reminder of the abundance of material available to Bible scholars and textual critics. Let one of these scholars, Sir Frederic Kenyon, explain the significance of all these Biblical manuscripts that have been discovered and at the same time answer the questions raised at the beginning:
“It may be disturbing to some to part with the conception of a Bible handed down through the ages without alteration . . . It is reassuring in the end to find that the general result of all these discoveries and all this study is to strengthen the proof of the authenticity of the Scriptures, and our conviction that we have in our hands, in substantial integrity, the veritable Word of God