Jehovah`s Witness/Animals(DISCARD previous)

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Hello Ben. Sorry for the inconvenience. I ommited a very important detail and I didnt answer your question about the tree of life.

As I said in the other message, God can use violence to destroy the wicked. So I confused words.My problem is not "violence" but a supposed "coldness"(lack of feelings) of the slayer. Is he worried, or else SHOULD he be worried about the animals he slays(animals that will be eaten)  or he treats them or shall treat them as meat with absolute coldness? As a moral being with consciousness provided by God, I would feel very awful if they forced me by violence to slay an animal.

Besides this, you said "Isnt God the ultimate authority of good and evil"? I dont know what you imply here, but we will talk about this in another subject. Thanks for bringing this on the surface.

Onto the subject.

My thesis for a paradise on Earth of 1)everlasting life 2)animals and man that only eat SEEDS of the plants(no carnivorous or herbvorous animals and men) are supported by
two passages

1st passage)
ROMANS
8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
8:22 For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now*.

* I dont believe they groan and travail in pain, wanting to get back to a world of the "survival of the fittest", where "your life is my life". No difference than the present world.

2nd passage( THE IMPORTANT ONE I OMMITED)
ISAIAH
11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

///////////////////////
The hebrew names of animals are irrelevant with Adam because
1)he was not Jew
2)they were fixed at a later time where we all observe violence, cruelty, carnivorous, herbvorous animals

I ommitted to answer to your question about the tree of life. Well, Adam and Eve hadn't yet eaten from this tree. Perhaps, it means that they were not made immortal, but had everlasting life as long as they stayed loyal to their father God. I think they hadnt the privilege of eternal life yet.

I claim that man's sin brought death to the animal world. If man was made the ruler of animals by God, then its physical that his death penalty would also bring death to the animal world. Its a chain, nothing obscure here.

Finally, youre correct about entropy. Entropy is useful for digesting food, walking etc.

Have a great day

Answer
Hi. I appreciate your thoughts. I think that it is cool that you are so interested in these things as I. Let's get to it...

You said,
"My thesis for a paradise on Earth of 1)everlasting life 2)animals and man that only eat SEEDS of the plants(no carnivorous or herbvorous animals and men# are supported by
two passages

1st passage)
ROMANS
8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
8:22 For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now*.

* I dont believe they groan and travail in pain, wanting to get back to a world of the "survival of the fittest", where "your life is my life". No difference than the present world."

> In regards to this passage in Romans 8, I think that there are a few things to consider to see if your conclusion is valid or not. First, what is "whole creation"? Isn't "whole creation" a reference to everything that has been created, at least in the natural world. In other words, the entire natural universe? If this is the case, then he is not speaking about just animals. Further, he would have to be speaking figuratively because he isn't talking about a literal, verbal groaning. Not all animals do that nor can do that. Second, what is the pain that is being spoken of here? Third, why does he say "until now"? When is the "now" that he speaks of? This was written 2,000 years ago and animals and humans still feel physical pain to this day.

Also, what makes you think that "survival of the fittest" is a bad thing? It is a proven fact that carnivores actually help with overall health of the herbivore life on this planet. Carnivores will kill the weak, hurt or disease ridden animals because they are the easiest to catch. Talk to any game warden and they will tell you that if the carnivores don't kill, the herbivores may spread disease and affect the remainder of the local population of deer, elk, or whatever herbivore we are talking about.

Further, is it really about what the animals want? What if God was preparing earth for what would take place, knowing that Adam and Eve would sin? We know that Lucifer had already sinned against God before Adam and Eve were created and possibly before the physical universe came into existence. So why couldn't God have been preparing for what He knew would take place? What if God saw death and decay as a good thing in order to point to a new creation where there would not be any, which leads me to your next passage....?


You said,
"2nd passage# THE IMPORTANT ONE I OMMITED#
ISAIAH
11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."

> This is a picture of what the millennium or new creation will be. If anywhere in this passage or any other similar passage, it said something like "just as was before the fall" at the end of it, then we might be talking. However, this passage doesn't speak on the conditions before the fall, it only speaks of the conditions in the future.


You said,
"The hebrew names of animals are irrelevant with Adam because
1)he was not Jew
2)they were fixed at a later time where we all observe violence, cruelty, carnivorous, herbvorous animals"

> Great thoughts, however, I believe that it may be relevant for reasons stated previously. Notice the following again....

"Although it is possible that Adam named the animals in some language other than Hebrew, and that those names were entirely different than the Hebrew ones, there is no biblical evidence for this idea. Even so, if the names were transliterated into Hebrew at a later point, one would assume that they would carry forward their original meanings, or else the Bible would have never made a big deal about Adam giving the animals their names. If the naming of the animals by Adam was important enough to be put into the Bible, one must assume that those names had meaning that related to their character. Otherwise, why would God have bothered to make Adam go through the exercise of naming the animals."

> Notice that it is mentioned that it is possible that Adam named them in some other language. Regardless, the animals name meanings would have been carried over into the Hebrew language in order for Moses to document the names in Hebrew. This is important also because the names that Moses writes about fit with the description of what these animals are like. This means that Adam named these animals with the names that fit the exact description of what the Hebrew meaning was when, as you claim, the Hebrew language hadn't even been formed yet or at least that Adam didn't know it yet. So if the names that Adam gave the animals didn't get transliterated over to other languages, then why did God have Adam name so many animals and inspire Moses to write about it? Perhaps I am not understanding something here but it seems to me that God had Adam name them and then he would have taught his kids what the names were and they would have taught their kids all the way down through Moses time.

In regards to your number 2 point, I don't understand what you are saying. Perhaps you could clarify.


You said,
"I ommitted to answer to your question about the tree of life. Well, Adam and Eve hadn't yet eaten from this tree. Perhaps, it means that they were not made immortal, but had everlasting life as long as they stayed loyal to their father God. I think they hadnt the privilege of eternal life yet."

> Chris, where do you get the idea that Adam and Eve hadn't eaten from the Tree of Life? And what would be the point of having that tree if it didn't provide what it is called, life? What evidence or basis is there for you to say that they didn't have eternal life yet, that they would die?


You said,
"I claim that man's sin brought death to the animal world. If man was made the ruler of animals by God, then its physical that his death penalty would also bring death to the animal world. Its a chain, nothing obscure here."

> It is a shame that the Bible doesn't explicitly say that sin brought death to the animal world. It is true that man's sin brought a curse to the animal world because the curse was pronounced by God to Adam and Eve after their sin. However, this still does not mean that death didn't precede the curse.

It is also interesting that the book of Revelation says that there will be a tree of life in the new creation. It is a wonder that I have about this tree. Will it be spiritual? Will there only be one? What is the purpose of it if we all have eternal life already? Does any of this factor in with the tree of life in the Garden of Eden? Those are questions that I have but the Bible just doesn't seem to be clear on.

Have a great day/night,
Ben  

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Ben Erdman

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I will attempt to answer any questions that have to do with major Jehovah’s Witness doctrine. I will also try to give an accurate and honest explanation from the "Truth" (the Word of God). I am not a Jehovah’s Witness. I was never baptized as one. I am a "witness" for Christ. I love talking about God and the piercing Word that He has provided for us. If I don't know the answer to a question I will be more than happy to research it and get an answer. So, let’s talk.

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I have grown up in the religion known as Jehovah’s Witnesses. Nearly all of my family (immediate and extended) are Jehovah’s Witnesses. I have been to probably hundreds of meetings, several assemblies and have had many in-depth bible studies with Witnesses. I love these people and admire their great zeal to do what they believe is truth. I have done extensive research into this area. I have a great passion in Jehovah’s Witness doctrine and beliefs.

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I do not have any particular educational credentials that affect this field. I believe that I have been very educated in this field of Jehovah’s Witness doctrine by my own experience and extensive studies. I also believe in my heart that the Spirit of God has educated me in this area and will continue to do so.

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