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Jehovah`s Witness/A different or slight version of the trinity godhead?

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Hi Richard,

Thanks for your reply.  

My apologies for being thick in the head but I needed to make sure that I fully understand what you're saying.

And you said:

>>You are trying to pin me down to say that I worship a pagan Trinity god, which is exactly what you asked me in the first and second letters.<<

No, I'm not trying to pin you down Richard. That's impossible for me to do but like I said I'm merely trying to get to the bottom of what you were saying.

And this latest reply from you seems to shed light to it.

You said:

>>...I do not worship the Trinity God as you understand the definition to be, I would be making an inaccurate statement if I told you that was what I believed.  I worship Jehovah God as He is revealed in scripture.  He is revealed in scripture in those 5 statements I gave you. <<  

So it's not Christendom's Trinity godhead that you worship but a slight variation/version of it where you:  

>>...worship one God, Jehovah.<<


But as you claim  


>>Jehovah is revealed throughout scripture as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...separate persons but still one God with the Son and the Holy Spirit eternally subject to the Father.<<

Thus, you believe that there are three separate beings in the godhead but at the same time one God, where Jehovah according to the scriptures (as you claim) is revealed as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but the Son and the Holy Spirit are "eternally subject to the Father".  


Like you said:


>>"1) There is one God 2) The Father is God 3) The Son is God 4) The Holy Spirit is God 5) The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate persons."<<

OK -  I got it, I think (sorry to repeat what you said but I had to make sure).

Trinitarians on the other hand believed that there is:

"...one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal, …(etc, etc)."

In other words your version of the Trinity godhead is: Three separate beings but ONE God where the Son and the Holy Spirit are lower and subject to the Father.

While Trinitarians have: Three faces in one godhead as depicted in so many of their paintings.

OK - that should make it clearer now, I hope.

Last questions on this subject.

In your version of the Trinity godhead.

What is this NATURE of their being "separate persons but still one God"?

It can't be in form or body since you said they are separate. So in what NATURE are they "separate persons but still one God"?


I know you compared it to family, but it doesn't compute because in the family all are not the same. There's the Father, the mother, and the kids and all have different status or "nature".



In other words when Jesus was on earth was he also God as in the True God the Father while at the same time He existed in heaven as the Father?


Since you said "Jehovah is revealed throughout scripture as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit", whom was Jesus praying to whenever he raised his eyes up to heaven?


And finally in your version of the Trinity godhead, if the Father is the True God, how can/does the Son and the holy spirit be one in NATURE?


That is, True Gods - if that's what you mean by NATURE.

BTW:
Trinitarians like to point the "Egg, Yolk and Shell" game as an example but can't seem to explain where does the chicken fit into the picture.

hahaha..  


Now on to what you said here:

>>In your previous letter, you said Psalm 23:1 clearly refers to Jehovah, and that John 10:11 and Hebrews 13:20 refers to Jesus.  The same thing goes with EVERY single set of verses that I listed describing the God who I worship.  Please try to understand how those verses (as well as the ones you have given me) fit into the 5 statements that I believe the Bible teaches about God.  I would like to know what these verses mean to you as it feels that you have skipped over the vast majority of them to move onto your next point.  Please take the time to offer your insight into these verses if you disagree with my understanding, particularly Is. 6:5 and John 12:41.<<


OK let me please list some of the scriptures you've cited and their meaning as I understand them (sorry for the long post - you've provided a lot scriptures).


You said:


>>I worship the God who...
Is my Shepherd - Ps. 23:1/John 10:11,14/Heb. 13:20<<


(Psalm 23:1) ". . .Jehovah is my Shepherd. I shall lack nothing."


The verse above clearly is talking about Jehovah God as a Shepherd.


(John 10:11) “. . .I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep.”


The verse above clearly is talking about Jesus Christ as the fine shepherd.


(John 10:14) “. . .I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me,”


The verse above clearly is talking about Jesus Christ as the fine shepherd.


(Hebrews 13:20) “. . .Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant, our Lord Jesus,”


The verse above clearly is talking about Jehovah God who resurrected his son Jesus Christ the great shepherd.


The verses above as I understand them show that Jehovah God and Jesus Christ are both shepherds. And the verses don't show in any way shape or form that Jesus is revealed as the Father or that Jehovah God is revealed as the Son just because they are both shepherds.


If this is the case then does the same rule apply to people who are also called shepherds?


Notice:


(Psalm 78:70, 71) “And so he chose David his servant And took him from the pens of the flock. 71 From following the females giving suck He brought him in to be a shepherd over Jacob his people And over Israel his inheritance.”



(Isaiah 44:28) “the One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out’; even in [my] saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘You will have your foundation laid.’””



From where did you get this idea, may I know?

 
>>Isaiah saw - Is. 6:5/John 12:41<<


(Isaiah 6:5) 5 And I proceeded to say: “Woe to me! For I am as good as brought to silence, because a man unclean in lips I am, and in among a people unclean in lips I am dwelling; for my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of armies, himself!”  


The verse above clearly refers to Jehovah God as the King himself. Not that Isaiah saw Jehovah God literally but by means of an angel he saw a vision of Jehovah God's holiness as opposed to his own uncleanness/sinfulness.


Notice:


(Isaiah 6:6, 7) “. . .At that, one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand there was a glowing coal that he had taken with tongs off the altar. 7 And he proceeded to touch my mouth and to say: “Look! This has touched your lips, and your error has departed and your sin itself is atoned for.””


The next verses below reveal what Isaiah will encounter when he goes to the people of Israel to give warning. But its application extends into the future.



(Isaiah 6:8-10) “. . .And I began to hear the voice of Jehovah saying: “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I proceeded to say: “Here I am! Send me.” 9 And he went on to say: “Go, and you must say to this people, ‘Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge.’ 10 Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.””


The same situation also happened when Jesus started his preaching work. People did not believe or put faith on what he said.


Notice:


(John 12:37-40) “But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, 38 so that the word of Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled which he said: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?” 39 The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: 40 “He has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I should heal them.. . .”


The same situation happened with Jesus' apostles when they went  preaching to the people.


(Acts 28:25-28) “. . .So, because they were at disagreement with one another, they began to depart, while Paul made this one comment: “The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to YOUR forefathers, 26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say: “By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means understand; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see. 27 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they should never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn back, and I should heal them.”’ 28 Therefore let it be known to YOU that this, the means by which God saves, has been sent out to the nations; they will certainly listen to it.””


Same thing today.  


The verses above and below do not in any way reveal Jesus as the Father or that Jehovah God as the Son unless of course you can show otherwise.


(John 12:41) . . .Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him. . .  


The verse above refers to the vision that Isaiah saw during his time. He saw by means of a vision Jehovah God's holiness and glory while sitting on his throne in heaven.


Notice:


(Isaiah 6:1-4) “. . .In the year that King Uz·zi′ah died I, however, got to see Jehovah, sitting on a throne lofty and lifted up, and his skirts were filling the temple. 2 Seraphs were standing above him. Each one had six wings. With two he kept his face covered, and with two he kept his feet covered, and with two he would fly about. 3 And this one called to that one and said: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The fullness of all the earth is his glory.” 4 And the pivots of the thresholds began to quiver at the voice of the one calling, and the house itself gradually filled with smoke.”


The verses do not in any way reveal Jesus as the Father or that Jehovah God as the Son unless of course you can show otherwise.

 
Will deliver those who call on His name - Joel 2:32/Rom. 10:13


(Joel 2:32) . . .And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling.”



The verse above clearly refers to Jehovah God and that we SHOULD call on his name. That is, to intimately know what that name means and what it stands for. Why?


(Romans 10:13) 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”  


Thus this verse clearly refers to Jehovah God.


>>Every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance to - Is. 45:23/Phil. 2:10-11 <<


(Isaiah 45:23) . . .By my own self I have sworn—out of my own mouth in righteousness the word has gone forth, so that it will not return—that to me every knee will bend down, every tongue will swear,"


This verse clearly refers to Jehovah God as the rest of the surrounding scriptures reveal:


(Isaiah 45:22-25) ““Turn to me and be saved, all YOU [at the] ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no one else. 23 By my own self I have sworn—out of my own mouth in righteousness the word has gone forth, so that it will not return—that to me every knee will bend down, every tongue will swear, 24 saying, ‘Surely in Jehovah there are full righteousness and strength. All those getting heated up against him will come straight to him and be ashamed. 25 In Jehovah all the seed of Israel will prove to be right and will boast about themselves.’””

As for the texts below:


(Philippians 2:10, 11) . . .so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.


The verses above talks about Jesus and Jehovah God and that all of intelligent creation must "bend" or to subject themselves to the Lord Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father.


Remember Jesus said:


(John 6:44) “No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him;. . .”


(John 14:28) “YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.”


 The verses you cited do not in any way reveal Jesus as the Father or  Jehovah God as the Son unless of course you can show otherwise.


>>Is my Creator - Is. 43:1/Col. 1:16 <<


(Isaiah 43:1) 43 And now this is what Jehovah has said, your Creator, O Jacob, and your Former, O Israel: “Do not be afraid, for I have repurchased you. I have called [you] by your name. You are mine.  


The verse above clearly is saying that Jehovah God created or formed Israel as a nation.


(Colossians 1:16) . . .because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.  



The verse above clearly shows that Jesus the only-begotten son was used by Jehovah God as master worker to create all other things, that is, all things besides Jesus himself. In fact Jesus is the first born of all creations.


Notice:


(Proverbs 8:27-30) “When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,”


(John 1:3) “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence”


(Colossians 1:15-17) “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,”


Notice - "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;"


(Revelation 3:14) ““And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”


Notice "the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”


(2 Corinthians 1:19, 20) “For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among YOU through us, that is, through me and Sil·va′nus and Timothy, did not become Yes and yet No, but Yes has become Yes in his case. 20 For no matter how many the promises of God are, they have become Yes by means of him. Therefore also through him is the “Amen” [said] to God for glory through us.”


Notice "“For the Son of God, Christ Jesus...through him is the “Amen” [said] to God for glory through us.”


So  the verses you cited do not in any way reveal Jesus as the Father or  Jehovah God as the Son unless of course you can show otherwise.



>>Is my Savior - Is. 43:3/Phil. 3:21 <------Is. 43:11 is clear there is only one.<<


(Isaiah 43:3) . . .For I am Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel your Savior. I have given Egypt as a ransom for you, E·thi·o′pi·a and Se′ba in place of you.  


(Philippians 3:21) . . .who will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body according to the operation of the power that he has, even to subject all things to himself.  


(Isaiah 43:11) 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”


Do doubt about it, Jehovah God is a savior. He saved the Israelites from bondage and captivity. He also provided his only-begotten son as a savior to mankind. So without Him there's no savior.


Remember this?


(John 3:16, 17) “. . .“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.”


The verses you cited do not in any way reveal Jesus as the Father or  Jehovah God as the Son unless of course you can show otherwise.


>>Is with me - Is. 43:5/Matt. 18:20 <<


(Isaiah 43:5) . . .“Do not be afraid, for I am with you. From the sunrising I shall bring your seed, and from the sunset I shall collect you together.  


The verse above is talking about Jehovah God saving his people from captivity.


>>See Isaiah 43:11 “. . .I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”” <<


(Matthew 18:20) . . .For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”


The verse above is talking about Jesus being in the midst of his servants when they are considering spiritual matters.


Notice the surrounding verses:


(Matthew 18:18-20) “. . .“Truly I say to YOU men, Whatever things YOU may bind on earth will be things bound in heaven, and whatever things YOU may loose on earth will be things loosed in heaven. 19 Again I truly say to YOU, If two of YOU on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them due to my Father in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.””



The verses you cited do not in any way reveal Jesus as the Father or  Jehovah God as the Son unless of course you can show otherwise.


>> Brings out the blind and deaf - Is. 43:8/Luke 7:22 <<


(Isaiah 43:8) . . .“Bring forth a people blind though eyes themselves exist, and the ones deaf though they have ears. . .


Here are the surrounding verses to understand what's going on:


(Isaiah 43:5-11) “5 “Do not be afraid, for I am with you. From the sunrising I shall bring your seed, and from the sunset I shall collect you together. 6 I shall say to the north, ‘Give up!’ and to the south, ‘Do not keep back. Bring my sons from far off, and my daughters from the extremity of the earth, 7 everyone that is called by my name and that I have created for my own glory, that I have formed, yes, that I have made.’ 8 “Bring forth a people blind though eyes themselves exist, and the ones deaf though they have ears. 9 Let the nations all be collected together at one place, and let national groups be gathered together. Who is there among them that can tell this? Or can they cause us to hear even the first things? Let them furnish their witnesses, that they may be declared righteous, or let them hear and say, ‘It is the truth!’” 10 “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.””



Again Jehovah God is the savior of his people Israel who became corrupt as if not hearing the word of Jehovah or seeing his works. They had become spiritually disabled - unable to hear and listen with their own ears and see with their own eyes the saving power of their God Jehovah. But now a challenge was put forth by God to all nations to provide their own witnesses because his own captive people will now be set free. The promised will now be fulfilled - collect and save his people and bring them back to their homeland. His named people will be his Witnesses of this saving act.


(Luke 7:22) . . .Hence in answer he said to the [two]: “Go YOUR way, report to John what YOU saw and heard: the blind are receiving sight, the lame are walking, the lepers are being cleansed and the deaf are hearing, the dead are being raised up, the poor are being told the good news. "


Having given the power to heal Jesus proved to the people that he is indeed the son of God.


The verses you cited do not in any way reveal Jesus as the Father or  Jehovah God as the Son unless of course you can show otherwise.



>>Is "I am He" - Is. 43:10/John 18:6 <------Note the reaction to these words <<


(Isaiah 43:10) . . .“YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. . ."


As already explained - the verse is about Jehovah God calling the nation of Israel his Witnesses.


(John 18:6) . . .However, when he said to them: “I am [he],” they drew back and fell to the ground. . . "


The verse above was about a question put to Jesus being the Nazarene.


Notice:


(John 18:4-9) “4 Jesus, therefore, knowing all the things coming upon him, went forth and said to them: “Whom are YOU looking for?” 5 They answered him: “Jesus the Naz·a·rene′.” He said to them: “I am [he].” Now Judas, his betrayer, was also standing with them. 6 However, when he said to them: “I am [he],” they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 Therefore he asked them again: “Whom are YOU looking for?” They said: “Jesus the Naz·a·rene′.” 8 Jesus answered: “I told YOU I am [he]. If, therefore, it is I YOU are looking for, let these go”; 9 in order that the word might be fulfilled which he said: “Of those whom you have given me I have not lost a single one.””


The verses above in no way show that Jesus is revealed as the Father or that Jehovah God is revealed as the Son unless of course you can show otherwise.


>>Is my Redeemer - Is. 43:14/2 Cor. 5:17 <<


(Isaiah 43:14) . . .This is what Jehovah has said, the Repurchaser of YOU people, the Holy One of Israel: “For YOUR sakes I will send to Babylon and cause the bars of the prisons to come down, and the Chal·de′ans in the ships with whining cries on their part.  


(2 Corinthians 5:17) “. . .Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away, look! new things have come into existence. . .”


The verses you cited do not in any way reveal Jesus as the Father or  Jehovah God as the Son unless of course you can show otherwise.


>>Is King of Israel- Is. 43:15/Zech. 9:9/John 1:49 <<


(Isaiah 43:15) . . .I am Jehovah YOUR Holy One, the Creator of Israel, YOUR King.”


(John 1:49) . . .Na·than′a·el answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”  


The verses you cited do not in any way reveal Jesus as the Father or  Jehovah God as the Son unless of course you can show otherwise.


Remember Jehovah God install kings to rule Israel as he see fit.


(2 Chronicles 9:8) “May Jehovah your God come to be blessed, who has taken delight in you by putting you upon his throne as king for Jehovah your God; because your God loved Israel, to make it stand to time indefinite, so that he put you over them as king to execute judicial decision and righteousness.””



>>Wiped out my transgressions - Is. 43:25/John 1:29 <<


(Isaiah 43:25) . . .“I—I am the One that is wiping out your transgressions for my own sake, and your sins I shall not remember.  


Verse above shows a prophetic utterance from Jehovah God of sins being forgiven. The Israelites were forgiven of their sins or transgressions when they were restored back to their city Jerusalem after being captives from foreign lands. But ultimately all (adamic) sins can be forgiven when the lamb of God is sacrificed. The means of doing this is revealed below.


(John 1:29) . . .The next day he beheld Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!  


The verses you cited do not in any way reveal Jesus as the Father or  Jehovah God as the Son unless of course you can show otherwise.


 


I'll stop here before it gets longer.


So like the ones above and the rest of the verses you've cited - none of them show what you're saying.


None of them reveal that Jesus is the Father Jehovah God or that Jehovah God is revealed as the son Jesus Christ or the holy spirit.


Furthermore why is the holy spirit if it's a person has no name and not mentioned in the scriptures you've cited?


Which brings me to this point - how are you connecting these verses to reveal what you say they are without considering the surrounding texts and contexts?  


Since you come up with this ideas on your own, how are they the teachings of "mainstream Christianity"?


Just wondering.

Answer
Thank you for taking the time to go through those scriptures and offer your thoughts.  Much of the time, discussions of this nature tend be Bible ping-pong and rarely offer insight on both sides of the same issue.  I sincerely appreciate the healthy discussion and the effort to understand what I am trying to say.

You reiterated many times that the verses I mentioned do not reveal that Jesus is the Father or that Jehovah God is revealed as the son Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit.  For the sake of keeping the answers shorter, I'll be happy to cover the Holy Spirit in a separate discussion.  I would also agree with you on the first part of your repeated comment.  Nowhere does scripture reveal that Jesus is the Father.  Nowhere in scripture is the Father revealed as the Son.  Throughout scripture the name of Jehovah is revealed as the Father.  The attributes of Jehovah in the verses I gave you are the same attributes of the Son in the New Testament because the Son is God.

I'm sure you have heard all the cliche explanations of the nature of the Trinity, like the one about the president being greater myself in position, but of the same nature since we are both human.  Or the comparison of the Trinity to water, and of course the one of the egg.  They make me smile as all of them try to confine the infinite into the finite, and I try not to use them if at all possible.

I will describe the nature of God this way...
The Son of dog is dog
The Son of man is man
The Son of God is God.

I realize that JW's will quickly point out that many different beings are called the sons of God, however the Jews in Jesus time recognized that being the real Son of God was different.  In John 5:18, they were trying to kill Jesus because He claimed to be the Son of God "making himself equal with God."  They understood that to be the Son of the Father was to claim to be the same Nature as the Father.  The reason I brought out John 18:6 was the use of "ego eimi" and the consequent reaction to the use of these words.  JW's prefer to discuss John 8:58 and the use of "ego eimi", however that argument is overdone.  In John 18:6, the purpose of that battalion of people with torches was to apprehend Jesus.  It was a virtual lynch mob, and yet the use of "ego eimi" caused them to stop what they were doing and fall to the ground.  For the reason seen in John 5:18, they understood what he was really saying...it wasn't simply identifying himself as the one they were there to apprehend.  I hope that helps with the understanding of the Nature of God.

You said <<when Jesus was on earth was he also God as in the True God the Father while at the same time He existed in heaven as the Father?>>
I never said Jesus existed as the Father.  When Jesus was on earth, as a man, he was temporarily placed positionally "lower than the angels", that did not remove his Deity for he was the Son of Man and at the same time the Son of God.  See the Nature description for what I mean by that.  I also hope that answers your question on how the Son and the Holy Spirit can be one in nature.  They are all Deity by nature.  Angels are not Deity by nature.

Again, I offer my sincere appreciation on your research.  It is healthy for readers to hear a balanced discussion.  Here are my thoughts.

Shepherd – I get this idea from the same discussion that I used with the term “son of God”.   Many beings are called “sons of God” just as many beings are called “a shepherd”.   Jesus being a “great Shepherd” identifies Him as a different shepherd than the others mentioned in Psalm 78 and Cyrus.   Your point is well received, particularly that of Cyrus, however I still believe that this is one of the many indicators of the Nature of Christ as God.

Isaiah seeing Jehovah – I disagree with your assessment of Is. 6:5.  You said that he saw a vision of Jehovah God’s holiness.  It doesn’t say Isaiah just saw Jehovah’s holiness.   In v.1, it says (as you quoted) “I, however, got to see Jehovah”.   His reaction is verse 5 shows the reality of this experience.  Vision or not, Isaiah saw Jehovah, and no man has seen the Father (John 6:46).

You aptly stated that people’s eyes were blinded and their hearts hard, “that they should not see with their eyes and get the though with their hearts” in the days of Jesus and still today.  I could not agree more.

Calling on the name of the Lord – Romans 10:13 does refer to Joel 2:32 which both show this attribute to Jehovah.   Paul is more specific in 1 Cor. 1:2 that all of those who call upon the name of Jesus Christ and sanctified in Him are called holy.  In no way does this call Jesus the Father, but it does reveal Jehovah as the Son.

Every knee shall bow – What you said is true.  All created beings do bow down at the name of Jesus.  We are seeing two sides of the same coin.  

Creator – I could have, and probably should have, chosen a better example than Is. 43:1, however I don’t think anyone would debate that the Father created the world through Christ.  I would mention that the word [other] in Col. 1:16 was simply added in the NWT and doesn’t exist in any early text.  See the Kingdom Interlinear published by the WTBTS for proof.   Without that [other] word, ALL things that were created were created by the Father through Christ.  This is also evident in Revelation in which all created beings give blessing, glory, and might to the Father and the Lamb.  To be consistent, the NWT should have put [other] there too.

I am sure that you are familiar with the discussion on “first-born”, “only begotten”, and “beginning”.  In case those who are reading are not, I will offer points on each one.

First-born – The description "first-born of all creation" speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10). God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ (Hebrews 1:2-4). The phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27).  Notice the verb tenses in verses 19-29.  “Will make Him My first-born”…this is pretty clear that Christ was not the “first-born” yet.

Only Begotten – Greek “monogenes” also means “unique, or one of a kind”.  This is most easily seen in Hebrews 11:8 in which it tells of Abraham offering up his only begotten (monogenes) son, Isaac.   Obviously, Isaac is not the only created son of Abraham, nor was he the first…but he was unique in that God’s covenant would be made through him.  So to believe that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God is to believe that Jesus is the Unique Son of God, different from man or angels being called sons of god.

Beginning – The term Beginning is used for the Father…does that imply that He had a beginning?  He is also called the End…does that imply that He has an End?  Of course not!  The Father is the First and the Last.  Christ said the same about Himself in Rev. 1 and 2.  This refers to Christ’s pre-eminence over all creation as compared with Col. 1:15 and the term “first-born”.

Savior – You recognize that the Father is a Savior and that the Son is a Savior and that Is. 43:11 said “I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”  Consider 1 Tim. 4:10 (NWT) “For to this end we are working hard and exerting ourselves, because we rested our hope on a living God, who is a Savior to all sorts of men, especially of faithful ones.”  Is this “God” the Father or the Son?  The Father is the Savior of all faithful men; the Son is the Savior of all faithful men; and yet Is. 43:11 is clear that there is only one Savior.   Contrary to what you said, I do believe this reveals Jehovah as the Son.  I do NOT contend that this reveals Jesus as the Father.

In their midst – Simply, this is connecting an attribute of God to Christ…the fact that God is omnipresent as well as Christ being able to be in the midst of all those considering spiritual matters everywhere at the same time. This is not an attribute of angels.

Blind and the deaf – Your point is well taken.  I was just simply pointing out another attribute of God.  As you said, “Having given the power to heal Jesus proved to the people that he is indeed the son of God.”  This goes along with the Nature of God.

“I am He” – Discussions surrounding John 8:58 and “ego eimi” are well-known.   Again, I used John 18:6 to illustrate that those coming to apprehend Jesus understood His Deity with that comment.

Redeemer – or “Repurchaser” – We are redeemed by Christ.  It is through Him that we are sanctified, made holy and a new creation.

King of Israel – Nathanael calling Jesus the Son of God AND the King of Israel again shows how Jehovah from Is. 43:15 is revealed as the Son.   Jehovah does install kings to rule Israel as he sees fit, but all of the others were earthly kings and never equated with being the Son of God as Christ claimed to be.  

Wiped out my transgressions – The Jews knew that Jehovah was the only one who could forgive sins.  That’s why they were so shocked that Christ told others that their sins were forgiven.  Is. 43:25 may literally apply to the Israelites, but still Jehovah is the only one who can wipe out the transgressions of His people.

You ask a great question on how are my teachings the same as mainstream Christianity.  I firmly believe that the huge majority of believers of mainstream Christianity agree with the 5 statements that I made.  Those statements are biblical and can individually be backed up with scripture.   Some individuals or groups have added more onto that, but I can’t vouch for all of those statements or creeds.

On a side note, JW’s are told many times that Christendom believes certain things.  In fact, I remember reading an article on watchtower.org about a year and a half ago that listed the beliefs of Christendom.  Many of those beliefs are held across the board, but quite a few of them were upheld by mostly Catholics and not by most others under the “Christendom” label.  If you find that list, I would love to see it again as I can’t remember what they were.   My point is that people need to spend time understanding what others really believe and why (as you have been doing) and verify that what their organization tells them is true.  Be careful of any group that discourages you from asking questions or seeking truth outside of their own words.  That is some scary control.  Seek the truth from scripture alone without preconceived ideas and earnestly pray for God to reveal His truth.    

<<Last questions on this subject>>
Thanks for your time on this matter.  As questions on other topics arrive, please let me know.   You are in no way “thick in the head”.  You present well-researched discussion, and for that I also thank you.

To the person who sent DW the question trying to understand my comments, please feel free to contact me directly.  I will happy to help you understand what I am saying.  In no way will I degrade you or attempt to change your mind.   My goal is to share the love of Christ and salvation through Him alone.

Jehovah`s Witness

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Richard

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I am not a Jehovah's Witness, however I can answer many questions concerning the ideas and doctrines on which they disagree with mainstream Christianity. I have spent a great deal of time in ministry with current and ex-Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as those who have started to become disillusioned with the Watchtower Organization.

Experience

Jehovah's Witnesses are generally wonderful and moral people who are zealous for God. However, in their zeal, they have pledged allegiance to what they believe is God's spirit-directed organization. This allegiance blinds them from allowing God's word alone to work in them. My hope is to share the love of Jesus Christ with all who seek salvation, no matter their label or denomination. My experiences come from the relationship that I have with Him as the source of my daily strength. These experiences create an undeniable testimony of salvation by grace through faith in the cleansing blood of the Lamb of God. Through prayer and meditation on God's holy word alone, we find truth as revealed to us through the Holy Spirit.

Organizations
As the word "organization" is misleading in this particular area, I want to be clear that, as a member of the body of Christ, the label or denomination of the church I attend is not the source of my salvation. I do not go to or through any organization for official knowledge or guidance. I go to God's word alone.

Education/Credentials
I have a Bachelor and Master's Degree with extensive educational experience.

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