Jehovah`s Witness/Septuagint-Did Jesus say Jehovah?
Hello Brother Grunbaum, its been a long time. I pray all is well with you.
As I was reading through the questions and answers I noticed this conversation and had to bring some things to light. The most inaccurate thing we can tell someone is that Jesus said the name "Jehovah"? Why well lets look at the facts that can be easily resarched:
1. During the time of Jesus, the name of God was only pronounced at certain times. Although the scrolls did hold the "YHVH" it was never pronounced during temple reading and was instead replaced with "Adonai" This is not an invention of Christendom, but a historical fact!
2. The earliest usage of a word similar to the pronunciation of "Jehovah" only dates back to the 5th century, pronunciation of "Jehovah" dates back to the 11th century. These are common facts known to those with "Masters of Divinity" and "Hebrew Studies".
3. The pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton ceased during the 3rd to 2nd centuries B.C.E. with the original pronunciation being lost long before this time.
4. The earliest estimates of the birth of Jesus range from 6-4 BC. So at the time of Jesus the Tetragramaton would not have been pronounced by him during temple reading. Even if it was, he would have said "YAWEH" Yod Heh Vav Heh...not "Jehovah". There is no doubt however, that he did speak the name "Yaweh"!
5. The word "Jehovah" is a transliteration not a translation and is a "latin derivative" not derived from "Hebrew".
6. The word "Jehovah", Im sure you know, is a transliteration that means "Existing One" Yaweh on the other hand has a different meaning.
7. Jesus was never accused of using Gods name in vien as he would have by speaking it during reading in the Temple.
So yes Jesus did say Yahweh, but he never said "Jehovah"..Jehovah is the innacurate transliteration that has been accepted and used in our time. Most scholars who are trying to keep some accuracy, choose to use "Yaweh".
I must mention one other thing. The use of the word "Christendom". As I have stated and shown on many occasions, If you consider yourself a "Christian" then you belong to "Christendom". For anyone who disagrees...look up the meaning of the word.Its that simple. The meaning does not change because the WTBS tried to re-define it...it is what it is!
Rev. Darryl Murphy
One of the oldest extant manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint is Papyrus 957, the Rylands Papyrus iii. 458, preserved in the John Rylands Library
It is of the second century B.C.E. and consists of fragments of Deuteronomy.
Another manuscript, of the first century B.C.E., is Papyrus Fouad 266,containing parts of the second half of Deuteronomy ,the Tetragrammaton.
Then the Vatican Manuscript No. 1209 and the Sinaitic Manuscript, both of the fourth century and the Alexandrine Manuscript of the fifth century
You said Jesus did say Yahweh, but he never said "Jehovah but Sir Yahweh is Jehovah,so I dont see your point.
Then you said ,at the time of Jesus the Tetragramaton would not have been pronounced by him during temple reading. Even if it was, he would have said "YAWEH.
Now its clear they used the Septuagint,In the third century B.C.E., Jewish scholars in Alexandria, Egypt, produced the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew Scriptures, which came to be used by Greek speaking Jews,Yes the Jews stopped using it, but it became the Bible of the early Christian congregation.
When Christian Bible writers quoted from the sacred Hebrew Scriptures, they used the Septuagint. The Chester Beatty papyri of the Hebrew Scriptures include 13 pages of the book of Daniel in the Septuagint.
A superstitious idea arose among the Jews that it was wrong to pronounce that name. This resulted first in avoiding spoken use of the divine name among the Jews, then in removal of God’s personal name from Greek manuscripts of the Holy Scriptures. Eventually, in most translations of the Bible the divine name was completely replaced by expressions such as “Lord” and “God.”
Now I mentioned Fouad 266 papyri which , dated back to the first century ,These early fragments of the Septuagint is proof that Jesus and his first century disciples knew and used God’s name ,so to say he would not have been pronounced by him during temple reading is false .
Jesus himself clearly said:
(John 17:26) . . .And I have made your name known to them and will make it known. . .
Its hard for me to accept that he would read and instead of Gods personal name say Adonai
in view of what Jesus said about making his personal name known,Gods personal name is not Adonai
Christendoms Douay Version: A footnote on Exodus 6:3 says
“My name Adonai.which the Jews out of reverence never pronounce; but, instead of it, whenever it occurs in the Bible, they read Adonai, which signifies the Lord; and, therefore, they put the points or vowels, which belong to the name Adonai
The Catholic Encyclopedia [1913, Vol. VIII, p. 329] states: “Jehovah, the proper name of God in the Old Testament; hence the Jews called it the name by excellence, the great name, the only name.”)
Jehovah” is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name, although “Yahweh” is favored by most Hebrew scholars. The oldest Hebrew manuscripts present the name in the form of four consonants, commonly called the Tetragrammaton (from Greek te·tra-, meaning “four,” and gram´ma, “letter”). These four letters (written from right to left) are ???? and may be transliterated into English as YHWH (or, JHVH).