Jehovah`s Witness/(Sigh)...Just more of the same. Do these guys ever grow up?
I think its obvious these guys are beginning to feel the crushing weight of John 2:19, because these latest posts of Rando’s and DW’s, is the most laughable ones yet. A desperate attempt of 2 Scripture-twisters, to keep their doctrinal ship from sinking.
I still notice that you guys didn’t answer the question. Nor did you provide any Scripture showing Jesus did not rise in a physical body. Wow…who didn’t see that coming?
No, still the same old thing….The very guys who whine about character attacks, desperately trying to attack mine further, as if everyone and their brother can’t see how you guys have nothing to say that remotely refutes anything I have posted. Now its time for a couple of your JW brethren to come to your aid, and tell everyone AGAIN and AGAIN how evil Derrick Holland is.
So lame. And once again, we see ole DW hypocritically doing the very thing he whines about….attacking character, instead of answering ANYTHING.
DW…..“So you're saying SATAN is Derricks father?? Actually don't answer I reckon that must be what you're saying and I agree!!”
Oh, well then, if you guys both agree, then it MUST be fact….lol. WOW DW, what a scholarly and Biblically sound refutation of that awful belief that Jesus actually rose from the dead in a glorified physical body! Such knowledge of the Scripture right at your finger-tips, and presented in such a convincing manner. But actually, I think the ones who would be closer to being children of Satan, would be the ones DENYING the Scripture, not the one believing what the Scriptures say.
There you see it, folks….I present Scripture, and let it mean exactly what it says, and THEY attack character and try to invent some ridiculous theory about how a human body cannot be called “it”. Incredible.
Now, I am responding to their latest childish nonsense, to once again show how they have NOTHING by way of an answer, and can ONLY attack my character, because neither of them understand the meaning of the words “this” and “it”. And this latest repetition of the same comments from them, only proves it.
The postings over the past couple of days, have been exactly what I have pointed out that these people do, and continue to do….Launch one character attack after another, and then repeat like a broken record that I am the one doing the attacking. Once again, we have DW pleading with people to believe that I am using “Satanic character attacks”, and a host of JWs writing in and basically saying…”Yep, we see it too”.
But yet AGAIN, we see none of them list even one example of an attack from me on anyone’s character, while they themselves are the ones making the ad-hominem character attacks. Thanks, Guys, for proving my point yet again. Its really becoming obvious now, how the desperation is starting to show.
Now, instead of even dignifying their false and slanderous attacks with a reply, I will simply address what I believe are the main points that they have tried to raise, in response to the Scriptural evidence for Christ’s resurrection. DW can keep claiming all he wants, about how “blind”, “cuckoo”, and “dense” I am, that is fine. But what he will NOT do, is actually give an example of an attack on someone’s character, nor will he give a competent Scriptural reply to the points. That has been seen time and time again.
Which means, quite simply, this debate is over. The WT position is shown to be false, by the testimony of Scripture.
We have seen clear statements from Jesus Himself, that:
1. He would resurrect Himself in 3 days (John 2:19)
2. He was NOT a spirit (Luke 24:39)
3. He had a flesh and bones body after His resurrection (Luke 24:39)
We have a clear statement from the angel at the tomb, that Jesus was not there BECAUSE He was risen. Since it was obviously a BODY that the women had come to see, and since the angel KNEW they had come to see a physical body, then his statement proves that Jesus’ body was not there because it was risen.
We also have the testimony from history, that the Christian position has always been that Jesus Christ rose bodily from the tomb.
Their whole argument is built around 3 angles that they are using:
1. A false interpretation of a couple of verses, which interpretation has already been thoroughly refuted.
2. A feeble attempt to convince us that when Jesus said “this” and “it”, He didn’t really MEAN “this” and “it”, and that those words JUST HAVE to mean something else other than what they say.
And most recently….
3. Some odd notion that Jesus’ body should not be referred to as “it”, and should be referred to as “He”, and by referring to His body as “it”, He must not have been talking about His fleshly body after all.
I’ll say it again….If the JW position is true, namely that Jesus’ body was “dissolved” into thin air, then the empty tomb proves NOTHING in and of itself. It does NOT prove that Jesus rose from the dead, nor would leaving the body there, prove that Jesus could still not have risen a spirit. Whether they like it or not, they have rendered the significance of the empty tomb, to be irrelevant.
Now, what I am going to do, is simply to address a couple of points from Grunbaum, DW, and Rando, for the purpose of comparing their doctrine to the Scriptures.
In Grunbaum’s response to a question from Sal, where Sal had quoted a statement from me to Mr. Grunbaum about why Jesus rising in the flesh does not negate the ransom, Grunbaum said the following regarding me…..
SAL, quoting me….“"Nobody I know denies that Jesus gave His body a ransom. The point of contention is whether or not His rising in the flesh, negates the ransom. It doesn’"
SAL…."didn't give a bible answer how it doesn't"
GRUNBAUM, responding to Sal saying that I didn’t give a Scripture for my statement…
“He cant ,thats why he didn't,I have commented on this subject so many times ,common sense says you cant give something and then take it back if it was a payment for something.”
ME: Actually I can, and will be happy to, in the next comment that I will deal with in a moment. It is interesting that Grunbaum would say that I can’t give Scripture, when he was asked continually to give a Scripture that shows Jesus’ body being “dissolved” into nothing. Rando, DW, and the JW lady have all been asked the same question…..No Scripture, as of yet.
At any rate, this is the same Grunbaum that quit the debate after just one correspondence, although he was tag-teaming with other JWs at headquarters in that debate, rather than debating me himself. Yet, “they” still left many Scriptural points unanswered in that discussion, even sending me a “Private” message telling me the “prophet” was discontinuing the debate.
But at any rate, the Scripture listed below will show that a ransom is not negated by a resurrection in the flesh, since Christ DID give His life as a ransom, as well. For their logic to be true, Jesus could not have given His life a ransom, or else the ransom would be negated by His living again.
In fact, Grunbaum made that very contention in that debate back in January of 2012. Let’s read it for ourselves….
GRUNBAUM (from our previous discussion on this topic)………“We maintain his life was not lost or sacrificed ,for Christ to have given his life would mean he would be dead forever,the son of God Michael, who became Jesus Christ is alive, thus he didn't give his life or existance,that is not was he was sent to sacrifice is our point.
ME: So, we have a statement here from a JW authority, telling us that Christ did NOT sacrifice His life. But again, the Bible disagrees.
Matthew 20:28- “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his LIFE a RANSOM for many.”
Now, the entire point these people have been making, is that if something is a ransom sacrifice, then it CANNOT be taken back again without nullifying the ransom. And they believe and repeat this non-stop, because they have been TOLD this by the Watchtower Society, and not because it has any Scriptural merit in the least.
And the reason that His life can even BE a ransom for our sins, is BECAUSE He rose from the dead. So the notion that His life was not a ransom sacrifice, or it would have been lost forever, is complete unscriptural nonsense.
In fact, it goes against Jesus’ OWN statement in John 10:17-18.…
“Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.”
Once again, we see the WT position at complete odds with the Scriptures.
So I guess it is in order to ask the JWs here their OWN question….If Jesus’ LIFE was a RANSOM for us, then what exactly was lost if He was resurrected, and wouldn’t His being resurrected actually be taking BACK the ransom?
I think this Scripture is more than enough to refute the WT doctrine on this matter.
GRUNBAUM: “Our teaching makes more sense than Jesus give his body and taking it back ,just shows how dumb and stupid this Derrick Holland spiritually is to say:
"Nobody I know denies that Jesus gave His body a ransom. The point of contention is whether or not His rising in the flesh, negates the ransom. It doesn’t"
Since his religion has nothing else solid in scripture to confirm the teaching they resort to "IT" and "they" and proof text,now tell me this is not dumb.”
ME: The only thing “dumb” about this, is Grunbaum’s inability to even get the 2 words correct. Uh Dan, the words are “this” and “it”…not “it” and “they”.
And as you well remember in that debate, there certainly were other solid Scriptural points as well, that you never responded to. So its not “resorting” to anything. The fact is, the words “this” and “it” ARE there, and these are words that Jesus chose to use to tell us unequivocally that the same body that was put to death, would be the same body that was raised.
Had He intended to convey another meaning, He could have done so quite easily without using those words, which LIMIT which body it could be that was raised in 3 days. He used those words, and He used them for a reason. I realize that bothers you guys to no end, but it is your problem if you choose not to believe Him.
GRUNBAUM: “Well if we are to rely on the word "IT" as proof then that destroys one of his other teachings ,namely the Holy Spirit is a person,because the word "IT" refer to the 3rd person of God as a "IT"
ME: And you were just talking about “dumb” reasoning? There is much Scriptural evidence for the Personhood of the Holy Spirit. But I believe we have also had that debate too, as well, haven’t we Sir?
But again, this statement shows just how much those 2 words are bugging you guys. I have a suggestion….CHANGE YOUR DOCTRINE to conform to the Scriptures.
Now in Grunbaum’s response, I counted in his reply, the word “dumb” 9 times, and the word “stupid” 2 times. What I did not see, was even 1 Scriptural refutation of anything.
I don’t think calling everything in sight “dumb” and “stupid”, is really an effective way of making a point.
Now, on to Rando and DW. I truly cannot help the fact that Rando actually buys into the Good Friday tradition as the actual date of Jesus’ crucifixion, since these people are constantly decrying anything even remotely related to Catholicism or “traditions of Christendom”. Despite the fact that the Scriptures do not even bear out a Friday crucifixion, this is yet another attempt by these guys to dodge a plain passage of Scripture with a plain meaning.
Now, one thing is certain from John 2:19-21.…The disciples tied Jesus’ words into His resurrection from the dead. Nothing else. DW and Rando have tried their best to tell us that the “temple of His body” doesn’t really mean His body, that “this” and “it” don’t really mean “this” and “it”, but the Scriptures don’t lie. Jesus made this prediction, and it was the RESURRECTION that brought these words to their minds. It was not them sitting around in church and remembering these words about some “spiritual body” or congregation…No, they remembered His words when He rose from the dead. And given the fact that Jesus WAS in the heart of the earth 3 days AND 3 nights, then this harmonizes perfectly with His words in John 2:19-21. His body was put to death, and it arose in 3 days. Real simple.
RANDO: “No. Jesus was not talking about his Fleshy body. Take a look at the scripture, notice he stated, "this" and "it" not ("my" temple and raise "myself" up). That would be a FLESHY rendering. The thought of "man" NOT God's thought. Here's a warning from Jesus to Peter in not thinking "man's thoughts"
ME: Now, the latest attempt by DW and Rando to dodge the obvious, is their little notion that Jesus could not have meant His physical body, because He called His body an “it”, and they seem to think that He should have said “He” or “Me” if He was referring to His physical body.
All I can say to that, is that these guys must have been high school drop-outs, to have no better grasp of the English language than that. It is PERFECTLY proper to refer to one’s own body, or someone else’s body, as “it”. You would say “he” when referring to the person, but you can say “it” when referring to the various parts of a person. A number of examples come to mind.
If a man cuts off his hand (part of his physical body), he doesn’t say…”I cut off my hand…Pick HIM up!” No, he says “Pick IT up!”
If you ask a murderer where the body of the person he has just killed is, he can say…”ITS in the trunk”.
I guess they forgot about Matthew 27:49-50, where their own NWT calls Jesus’ body an “it”, not once, but twice….
Matthew 27:49-50- “ And Joseph took the body, wrapped it up in clean fine linen, and laid it in his new memorial tomb..”
In addition, the soul is called “it” in Ezekiel 18:4, in the NWT….
Ezek. 18:4- “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.”
And it is quite interesting that in this particular verse, the word soul IS being used to refer to the person themselves. Quite interesting indeed.
Similarly, a person may say….”When I die, I want you to take my body down to the funeral home and have IT cremated”.
But now we have poor DW and Rando, falling all over themselves, trying to tell us that Jesus would not have said “this” and “it”, if He were talking about His physical body.
Absolutely amazing, and extremely desperate in their attempt to grasp at any straw they possibly can.
So, in the absence of any real Bible answers, we see DW once again throwing a tantrum and falsely accusing me of character attacks (yawn), because he must think his constant repitition makes everyone forget that he hasn't answered anything at all.
Case in point....
DW: “You know he constantly attacks people's characters, he constantly twists what we believe and he constantly tells lies about what we believe. He's been caught so many times!!! Yet he comes on here claiming to know what we believe!…….I would be very happy for him to just stand behind his doctrine and not bring people's characters into the equation, but he never does!! Because he can't!!
So his tactics need to be pointed out. His tactics are Satanic!! It's that simple.”
ME: Fine, DW…So where are the examples? C’mon…show us the character attack. If I do it "constantly", then it shouldn't be so hard for you to PRODUCE THE EXAMPLES. Are you lying, DW?
Now, I can show the ones people like you have made towards me. But I don’t have to stoop to that. You know why? Because I’m on solid Scriptural ground in this dicussion, and I am right. Therefore, I don’t have to resort to what you have to, because you’re losing, and you have no other option.
Ever watch football, DW? When one team has just had their tail handed to them, and the clock is winding down, a fight often breaks out. And you know who it almost ALWAYS is, that starts the pushing, shoving, and name-calling? Yep, that’s right….the team that is losing. The winning team doesn’t have to fight…they have the scoreboard in their favor. Likewise in this conversation, I have the weight of Scripture on my side.
That is why you have to be the one doing the attacking, and then lie and claim it is me. That is why you cannot post an example of a character attack from my end. I don’t need to do that, because character is not the issue here…The issue is what the Scriptures teach. You have no Scriptures which state what you believe on the resurrection of Christ. That is why you attack. But it simply doesn’t work with me. Looks like you would have figured that out by now.
DW: “But like you say he just constantly repeats the same point as if he thinks constantly repeating the same point makes his argument any stronger!!…..You know what.
"I'm the greatest in the world at everything" "I'm the greatest in the world at everything" "I'm the greatest in the world at everything" "I'm the greatest in the world at everything" "I'm the greatest in the world at everything" "I'm the greatest in the world at everything" "I'm the greatest in the world at everything" "I'm the greatest in the world at everything" "I'm the greatest in the world at everything" "I'm the greatest in the world at everything"
I've repeated it ten times and my argument that "I'm the greatest in the world at everything" is still as weak as it was when I said it the first time!!”
ME: Yep, so true. And you can keep writing posts every day, and making the same false charges again, and again, and again….But your charges are still just as false and ridiculous as they ever were.
And as I have pointed out in previous posts, it is you, DW, who thinks if he repeats something enough, it magically becomes true. So keep on with the false accusations…You still have no examples to show. And I will keep pointing that out and reminding you of that, as many times as necessary.
DW: “But you know the holidays are coming up I should get a nice bit of spare time,I'm going away for a week maybe two, so I might just really take him to the cleaners then , absolutely give him a scriptural mauling on any subject he chooses. You know just for fun really!! as you know there's nothing better I like than discussing scripture and a very close second that I like doing is making Christendom look ridiculous,and I do tend to get bored fairly easily, so in my spare time, why not??
Maybe the readers would like to see that?? Maybe Derrick will realize he's so far out of his depth and use excuses to back out?? Maybe he'll recruit all his friends to help him?? Who knows but I'm up for it, if that's what people want to see!!”
ME: Awesome! I will certainly be looking forward to this one.
And the subject I choose? Hmmm…how about the one we are on now? But its only fair to tell you….In order to administer a “Scriptural mauling”, you will need, well…SCRIPTURE. So, I want from you:
1. A REAL explanation of why Jesus’ statement in John 2:19-21 doesn’t mean what it says.
2. Explain why Jesus attempted to deceive His disciples in Luke 24:36-39, by telling them He was NOT a spirit, when they ALREADY thought He WAS a spirit, which according to the WT doctrine on this subject, He WAS a spirit. I would like to know, in short, why He corrected them if their original notion was correct.
3. I would like you to produce just one shred of evidence from Scripture, that Jesus was “dissolved”, “disintegrated”, or whatever your belief on that might be this week. Please provide Scriptural references. Hard to maul someone from Scripture without references.
MY PREDICTION: We will see NONE of these things from you, whether you take 2 weeks or 2 MONTHS off. What we will see, are more accusations from you of “satanic character attacks” accompanied by NO examples of such, more name-calling, more insults aimed at my intelligence, and more tantrums fitting of a 5 year-old child.
But I am quite positive we will not see a “Scriptural mauling”. So maul away, DW, if that is what you feel inclined to do. Every man has to deal with stress in his own way.
Its sad, really….To see how far people will go to deny Scripture, and how they will place their own false doctrine above the very words of God, because they have sacrificed their thinking capacities in order to be servants of a man-made Organization, rather than followers of the Savior.