Jehovah`s Witness/Babylon the great, Cont

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QUESTION: Hello. Ive got three questions.

1)How do you personally figure out "Babylon the Great" is ONLY a religious system? Couldnt it also be a political or a trading one, instead of religious? WHY NOT 3 IN ONE? In the later Babylon of Nimrod or Nebuchadnezzar(not in the early one where we had a king and a priestess higher than the king), there was no distinction between priests and kings. It was a global one-religion,one-man government system. Needless to say that Babylon the Great is also referred as a trader.

2)Why "Babylon the Great" cant be a literal city? The symbol is the whore and the literal thing is a city(great city). Of course not just a city, but a SYSTEM God doesnt approve. Why cant it be a literal city with a GLOBAL influence? Does it have to be spreaded all around the Earth?Tyre had a global influence and it was located in Phoenicia.

3)What about Tyre? This can be an extension of question 2. I want to say that Tyre was reigning over the kings of the earth and it was one literal city located in a specific place. I read Isaiah 23 and Hezekiel 26-28 chapters and I was shocked by the many similarities between Babylon the Great and Tyre. Both are ancient, both reign over the kings of the Earth, kings of the Earth lament for them. Tyre's traders were the greatest of Earth , Babylon's too. Theres a reference of "land of Chaldeans"
in Isaiah 24 etc.


Alright. These are my thoughts. I dont feel any blame for being confused. No, I feel I have done a great effort trying to analyze what the Bible really says. If there is confusion, its not we that created it. I think its a riddle of God and its not easy to fix it. There are many interpretations lol, why this is false, why this is correct. Have we tested them all? In fact there is also the interpretation that Babylon the Great is Jerusalem(the great city where our Lord was crucified).

He,he lets dig some more. Riddles are not easy.

Have a good day

ANSWER: Hello mate

Thanks for writing

I believe the answer I give below will answer all three questions in one go.

The Kings of the Earth are mentioned seperetaly to Babylon and they are always mentioned seperately

17 

"Come, I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication"

The Kings of the Earth and the travelling merchants are still around after she falls.

Rev 18:

9 "And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, 10 while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city"

15 "The traveling merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of [their] fear of her torment and will weep and mourn, 16 saying, ‘Too bad, too bad—the great"

Kings are also beasts in the Bible both in Daniel and Revelation they are beasts, beasts with horns who are also Kings

11 "And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth [king], but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.
12 “And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings one hour with the wild beast"

Whereas Babylon the great is a harlot not a beast nor a horn. A harlot/prostitute makes claims of being God's people however in reality it is a false worshipper of God.

Ezekiel 16:

35 "Therefore, O prostitute, hear the word of Jehovah"

Harlot or prostitute is always used in a religious sense if symbolic. Here's another scripture

James 4:

4 "Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God?" Whereas true worshippers are virgins this is the case in Revelation".

Rev 14:

4 "These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins"

If you read Ezekiel 28 you will see that the king of Tyre mentioned there represents Satan the Devil.

vs 13 "13 In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o·lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you"

This is what the word of Jehovah (Michael/Jesus) said about this King represented by Satan

:17"Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You brought your wisdom to ruin on account of your beaming splendor. Onto the earth I will throw you"

We saw this happen in 1914

Rev 12:

7 "And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan"

OK I won't go any deeper on this verse. I shall wait until it's Jehovah's time to reveal it.

1 Cor 1:

10 "Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought"

So hope this answers your questions

Follow up if you need

Take Care












---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks for writing. Your interpretation is very strong, since in very ancient Mesopotamia(even before Babylonians capture Sumer) there was a high priestess electing kings, after making love with them in the beginning of the year. So the ancient town of Babylon and her religious system could be a highly possible candidate for "Babylon the Great" character. Someone would ask why this woman was important. A pair of the opposites man/woman was believed to be responsible for life and vegetation, preventing the return to the ancient chaotic abyss.

A NOTE HERE. If you believe "Babylon the Great" is a distinct religious character with authority upon the kings, you cant use Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar, cause at that time the priests were puppets of Nebuchadnezzar.Now, I dont know about Nimrod. Was he a puppet of a high priestess, was he like Nebuchadnezzar?Maybe the second?

I like your simplicity, dealing all questions with a single answer. But I feel it only answers question 1. I tend to agree with you in the distinction of Babylon the Great as a religious system. Lets see.

She reigns over the kings of the Earth, sitting as a queen, but she hasnt horns as politicians have. Ok, she has authority upon them, kings respect and ask her when they decide, maybe she also seduces them, but she's not a king/politician taking the final decision. Then, she has exchanges with the traders of the world, being also a trader herself but it seems shes connected with religious trade, not war industries. Alright, I see that she cant be a 3in1 system, cause then what is the Beast and kings destroying her? It seems Beast and kings are globalization, not Babylon the Great.  If we take Babylon the Great as one religion/one government system, then we have the problem of the Beast. Beast seems to be the globalizer, taking all kings under his control.

But lets move to the next questions.Why we cant follow the ancient biblical interpretation, where prophets address literal cities and their false systems as whores. Why a literal city couldnt have a global influence, as ancient Tyre had? If that whore is at a central place where her main wealth is located and that place goes boom, then her substores have no power to survive, if she has spreaded all around the Earth. Of course, this would mean I dont accept "Babylon the Great" as only religious, but religious/trading system.

Finally, please read Isaiah 23, Hezekiel 26-28, and tell me what kind of system Tyre represented(religious,political,trading?) and if she can help us in the identification of Babylon the Great(see similarities).

I hope that even if some confusion still remains, some things have been cleared up.

Have a good day

ANSWER: Hello again

Thanks again for writing

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<A NOTE HERE. If you believe "Babylon the Great" is a distinct religious character with authority upon the kings, you cant use Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar, cause at that time the priests were puppets of Nebuchadnezzar.Now, I dont know about Nimrod. Was he a puppet of a high priestess, was he like Nebuchadnezzar?Maybe the second?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The difficulty you're faced with is over elaborating on the parallels. Everything can't parallel everything.

Like for example another one in Daniel would be the image of the kingdoms

Dan 2

31 "You, O king, happened to be beholding, and, look! a certain immense image. That image, which was large and the brightness of which was extraordinary, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was dreadful"

and then over elaborating on it saying "well this image has two arms so who do the two arms represent" or it had "ten toes who are the ten toes". Sometimes you can over think things and that's where the confusion comes in. Two arms and ten toes aren't mentioned so they mean nothing.

So something doesn't always have to have to parallel like that. I mean how far are you going to take it what about the other Babylonian kings like Belshazzar for example, who's he??. There is no mention of Nebuchadnezzar or Nimrod in Revelation so their significance holds no meaning in this regard. It's literally just Babylon and what she represents.

Just to clear up a point here Babylon the great is represented as all the false worshippers right back to Cain how do we know??

This was Jesus talking about the religious leaders here these parallel Babylon the great

Matt 23:

33 "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen′na? 34 For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; 35 that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous ABEL to the blood of Zech·a·ri′ah son of Bar·a·chi′ah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar"

So you could say A-Z, Abel to Zechariah.

Rev 18:

24 "Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth"

So it literally represents all false worshipper's from the beginning of time. Starting with Cain who was responsible for Abel's death. So Nimrod and Nebuchadnezzar are irrelevant in identifying the city.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Why we cant follow the ancient biblical interpretation, where prophets address literal cities and their false systems as whores. Why a literal city couldnt have a global influence, as ancient Tyre had?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Here's a couple of reasons. Symbolically "Harlot" means a claimed worshipper of God in scripture it doesn't mean a literal city just the inhabitants of a city. So even if your claim was true about a literal city it would only have to be inhabitants of that city who where Babylon the great.

Secondly. Now you see in view of the above answers I've given you. You now have to find inhabitants of a literal city that holds massive world influence, that is separate from all the the other Kingdoms and was around in the time of Abel, that was responsible for killing Abel and is still around today killing people.

So Babylon the great simply has to be symbolic.There's no other choiceand of course that fits Revelation perfectly seeing as it's a symbolic book.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Finally, please read Isaiah 23, Hezekiel 26-28, and tell me what kind of system Tyre represented(religious,political,trading?) and if she can help us in the identification of Babylon the Great(see similarities).>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Tyre is in the Bible to represent Jehovah's ability to execute by any means possible. Tyre was ransacked by Nebuchadnezzar and destroyed totally by Alexander the great. Satan is the King of tyre as I showed in my first answer.

Therefore IF you WANTED to draw the parallel it would represent the world that Satan created. It would also represent the fact that it would be destroyed three times. Once by Nebuchadnezzar. Once by Alexander the Great and finally the symbolic Tyre(Satans system) by Jesus.

Three prophetic destruction's signifying intense or extreme destruction of Satan's world. As the number three in the bible signifies intensity

Matt 26:

34 "Jesus said to him: “Truly I say to you, On this night, before a cock crows, you will disown me three times"

Hope this has helped

Follow up if you need

Take Care

jw.org

https://www.jw.org/en/free-bible-study/




---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Yes, it helped. Sometimes we dont deal with the question taking the conversation away from the real subject, in order to avoid answering things that seem to oppose our beliefs.If I wasnt satisfied with your answer I would not hide it, but I think you provided a very strong point in support of your thesis.

Revelation
18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Truly, I can hardly imagine only one literal city that is responsible for the blood of all prophets,saints and people through the years. Yes, its very similar with Jesus' saying against religious leaders. One note here, how is religion responsible for the blood of Abel? It would be only possible if Abel and Cain were not alone but were living in large religious societies. So perhaps Cain and Abel may represent something more than themselves, instead of two men that were alone on Earth. Otherwise, I cant understand how Cain was a religious leader if these two guys were alone on Earth, lol.

As for "Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar" it seems you didnt understand what I said, and I also didnt understand what you said LOL.  I meant "Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar's TIME". When Nebuchadnezzar was king "Babylon the Great" was not riding the king. Nebuchadnezzar was a wild beast(king), hehe so Babylon during his time was mainly a political power. But yes, in ancient Babylon it was the high priestess that was riding upon the beast.

You also say two hands and 10 toes have no meaning. Dont say this, many times you also make interpretations that are not DIRECTLY found in the text(dont get me wrong, Im not saying you're false if youre doing this). What about ten toes being the ten kings that destroy Babylon? Hehe. I like interpretations that are not directly found in the text and come from comparing verses, but I dont like it if they become an undisputed doctrine,lol.


So in general the verse you provided is a strong case against a "literal city" interpretation.

Finally, you wrote Tyre represents the world of Satan and it was destroyed 3 times - 3 a number with meaning. Ok, sounds good. But "world of Satan" is too indefinite. Did you notice the similar verses with "Babylon the Great"? I would say Tyre represented a great religious/trading system after Babylon had lost its glory. And "Babylon the Great" of John's time was Rome or even Jerusalem. Dont get me wrong, Im not going back to literal interpretation. Im saying all these are faces of Babylon the Great - the mother of all whores.

There are some other verses to be discussed about Babylon the Great, hope it sounds interesting and you want to check opinions.

Tell me a final thing. I know that the wars that happen today are caused mostly by Judaism and Islamism, so they have a religious flavor. Even if its not popular Im also of the opinion that what we called "world wars" were also caused by Judaism's dreams to fullfill prophecies of world control but anyway. This is not the point of my question. The question is : ok, religious leaders cause wars but they are also caused because war industries have to keep making weapons. Do you agree?

Thanks for the help. Have a good day

Answer
Hello again

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Yes, its very similar with Jesus' saying against religious leaders. One note here, how is religion responsible for the blood of Abel?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You seem to be stuck on the idea that Babylon the great needs religious leaders. Yes it has evolved that way. However it's purely symbolic . It's symbolic of those who claim to worship God but in reality don't . Cain pretended to worship God but in reality was a false worshipper. That's all Babylon the Great is symbolic of. It's evolved into "the world empire of false religion" from Cain onwards.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<You also say two hands and 10 toes have no meaning. Dont say this, many times you also make interpretations that are not DIRECTLY found in the text(dont get me wrong, Im not saying you're false if youre doing this).>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have no idea what you mean here?? When is this case?? Maybe in the past yes but we've learned from those mistakes.

Ten toes aren't mentioned therefore if you want to talk about ten toes meaning something you're going down Christendom's route of not letting the Bible interpret the Bible. You're putting your own opinion on things. Can't be done I'm afraid!! It's Gods word not ours if he wanted us to know what ten toes where he would have mentioned it at the time.The image might have had nine toes we don't know!! Probably not but nevertheless, hahaha

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,I like interpretations that are not directly found in the text and come from comparing verses, but I dont like it if they become an undisputed doctrine,lol>>>>>>>>>>>

OK seeing as we both like to be straight talking. That sentence above is your big problem you're not looking at the basic scriptures like this.

1 Cor 1:

10 "Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought"

Pretty simple really.

I do what you do, look at the very deep meaning of scripture. I do my own research all the time. I've got Bible encyclopedias and historical books and interlinear's and all sorts. Nothing wrong with that at all but the difference is. I don't discount scriptures like this that are as obvious as they look!! So God say's it and we do it. It's obvious from scriptures like this God has a group that all agree on doctrine else there would be utter chaos!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<But "world of Satan" is too indefinite.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Don't know what you mean here it would be this world here.

1 John 5:

19 "We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one"

The world Satan's created means everything encompassed all the wicked. Religion, money, politics etc

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<And "Babylon the Great" of John's time was Rome or even Jerusalem.>>>>>>>

Yeah it would include all the false worshippers including Tyre, Rome,and Jerusalem It's symbolic of ALL false worshippers. So it includes them all.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<There are some other verses to be discussed about Babylon the Great, hope it sounds interesting and you want to check opinions.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yeah course I love the deep stuff as well as the basic stuff ;-) hahaha

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,,ok, religious leaders cause wars but they are also caused because war industries have to keep making weapons. Do you agree?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yeah there's many contributing factors to wars that would be one of them.

Chat later

Take Care  

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I have many years of experience serving Jehovah . I have known Jehovah a long time and I have known his organization . I have been privileged to see great progress not only in my own personal relationship with my God and Father but within his organization. I am an avid reader of the bible and have been gifted by my Father with the indescribable privilege of being allowed to understand his own word.

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The truth is all about scripture and logic. The two go hand in hand . There is not one bible verse that cannot be understood within the realms of human reasoning. Not one!! Why would it?? The bible is God's message to his creation . His creation who he made to understand things in a specific way. God is not stupid or unwise as to leave as a message then allow us to guess what it means or who he is. 1 Tim 2:3This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth" Notice the expression "accurate knowledge".

Organizations
The bible leaves signs of true christianity there are many. Jehovah's witnesses meet every single sign. One sign is the removal of false teachings that permeated the world soon after the apostles died. Jesus foretold this and he also foretold of the restoration of pure worship in the period known as the last days. The days we are currently living in. Jesus was a master of using illustrations he used an illustration to highlight this point Matt 13: "The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse" Why did he speak in illustrations? Matt 13:10So the disciples came and said to him: “Why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” 11In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted" The kingdom of the heavens is full of sacred secrets that Jesus reveals only to his followers. This privilege is open to all who are really willing to submit to God and his Christ in action not just in words. These are the ones God is looking for. Are you really one?? If so I encourage you to let Jehovah's witnesses show you what the Bible really teaches.

Education/Credentials
False religion is disgusting to God and to his true worshippers it is likened in the Bible to a harlot Rev 17:"I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication" Whereas the bride of Christ is likened to a virgin Rev 14: 4"These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins" These are both used as spiritual terms here and show the importance of pure and clean worship for God's people.

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