Jehovah`s Witness/the confusing trinity doctrine

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Question
Bro. Rando,

Is Mr. Holland or for that matter Richard introducing another version of this devil inspired Trinity doctrine?

Notice his responses to your posts - which he call "lies" but I replaced them with your name.

=====quote:====
Rando: "The Trinity Doctrine comes down to this BOLD LIE: God became a man, so that man can become God."

REPLY:  Rando seems to not discern between Trinitarian doctrine, and Mormon doctrine.  Trinitarians do not believe that we will become God.  That job is taken.  We simply believe that the Scripture reveals 3 Divine Persons as being God, by nature.  His above statement is a blatant lie.

Rando: -  "Trinitarians make the claim that Jesus is the Father himself in the Old Testament"

REPLY:  Actually, Rando himself KNOWS this is a lie, as he has been corrected several times on this.  In fact, believing that Jesus IS the Father, is not even in harmony with the word "Trinity".  The word means "Tri-unity", or "unity of 3".  To say that Jesus IS the Father, is much closer to the false Oneness doctrine of some Pentecostal groups, than Trinitarianism.  Rando deliberately misrepresented the Trinity in this lie.

Rando -  "The Trinitarians are so desperate, they grab any scripture with the number (three) in it and claim it explains the Trinity in explicit detail."

REPLY:  Actually, it is Rando who is so desperate to DISPROVE the Trinity, that he has latched onto a verse mentioning 3 "unclean spirits" found in Rev. 16:13, which has no relevance to the Trinity whatsoever, and claimed he has "found the Trinity" in the Scriptures.  Trinitarians aren't desperate...We have verses showing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be God.  

The one who is "desperate", is the one who has to lie.  People who aren't desperate, don't need to lie.  No, we do not grab any verse mentioning the number 3, as proof of the Trinity.


The next 3 lies about the Trinity, I will put together, because they are basically the same.  But they are ALL quotes from Rando, at different times....

Rando -  "Those who believe the TRINITY, Worship the Trinity. The Trinity is made up of three Gods.

Matter of fact, Religion has not told the truth about the only True God, Jehovah. They say Jehovah alone is not the most high, he shares his position with two other gods that are equal to him.

Your right in the doctrine about the Trinity that their are three gods that form one Godhead and all being equal….The Trinity says all 3 are gods"

REPLY:  No Trinitarian believes or teaches that there are 3 separate "gods" in the Trinity.  This is a lie.  Nor do Trinitarians believe that Jehovah shares His position with ANY other "gods", for the reason that we don't believe any other "gods" EXIST.  This is in harmony with Jehovah's own words in Deut. 32:39....

"See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand."

How can Jehovah "share His position with two other gods", that don't even exist?


Now, let's deal with a few lies that Rando has told about me personally....

Rando -  "He's heavily into Christendom's Satanic Holy Days such as Easter, Halloween, and Christmas and would rather celebrate the Lie rather than the "truth". Let him drift off to Gehenna where is weeping and gnashing of teeth are."


REPLY:  I celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and I do not even call the celebration "Easter" in my home.  We refer to it as "Resurrection Sunday".  I do honor the birth of Jesus Christ at Christmas time, and also throughout the year.  We do not pagan customs in our home at Christmas.

====end quote=====

Here's Richard's trinity version (too long to quote his entire post):

====quote====

"1) There is one God  2) The Father is God  3) The Son is God  4) The Holy Spirit is God  5) The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate persons."
...

As I don't subscribe to any creeds, I will simply offer what Scripture says, nor will I imply "this" or "that".  In their unity (John 10:30), Christ, as the Word of God (John 1:1), can only speak what the Father wills Him to speak (John 8:28).  As Christ is subject to the Father, He can only do what the Father wills Him to do (John 8:28).  Christ wants all glory to go to the Father (John 17:1), glory that will not be shared with another (Is. 48:11) and still Christ is crowned in glory and honor (Heb. 2:9).  The Father is the God of Christ (Rev. 3:12) just as the Father is the God of me.  Christ is the God of me just as He is the God of Thomas (John 20:28).

....
...I worship one God, Jehovah.  Jehovah is revealed throughout scripture as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...separate persons but still one God with the Son and the Holy Spirit eternally subject to the Father.   
====end quote====

So as you can see the trinity that they worship is somewhat a slight version of the Catholic trinity version.

The Catholic's as well as the majority of Christendom believe on a trinity that are co-eternal, co-equal... that is according to the Athanasian Creed:

"we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty."

While these other group of Trinitarians - Holland/Richard states that:

"1) There is one God  2) The Father is God  3) The Son is God  4) The Holy Spirit is God  5) The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate persons."

Where Jehovah is the True God but at the same time worship Jesus as their God along with the holy spirit as God.

In any case - whatever version they come up with it's STILL an unscriptural doctrine based on a doctrine rooted in paganism.

Man, Satan has them really confuse big time. A trinity that is not a trinity but at the same time a trinity and a Christmas that is not a Christmas but at the same time is a Christmas.

What's your thought Bro. Rando?

Answer
I think you did rather well, pointing to how the "trinity" keeps trying to transform itself into an angel of light.  The man-made trinity doctrine is hypocritical in itself stating the "three parts" are not gods but "three separate persons".    Then the trinity points to "gods" within it's own doctrine.

It claims the first person of the Trinity is:

1) God the Father.... that's one god.

Then claims the second "separate person" is a god itself:

2) God the Son.... that's two god's.

Then the  third "separate person" is:

3) God the Holy Ghost... that's three god's.

Deut. 32:39 plainly states, "there are no gods together with me."    Jehovah alone is the most high. (Psalms 83:18) And Jehovah is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.  But God the Son and God the Holy Ghost is completely absent from scripture.

Duet 32:39 actually renders "there are no Elohim together with me."  This one scripture alone destroys all versions of the trinity and that is why trinitarians switch to modalism when cornered.  They say Jesus is Jehovah of the old testament or Jehovah is Jesus in the flesh in the new testament.  The trinitarians then hypocritically hold fast to a false doctrine that god manifested in the flesh because the "three separate persons" fall short of scripture.  The teaching is modalism.  "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." (1 Timothy 3:16 KJV)

To say God was  justified in the Spirit is to promote a lie that God was unjustified at one point.  How can "God" be received up into glory?  And to whom?  To the angels??  REALLY!!!  Punch that demon in the mouth!  

Isn't it interesting that Apostates go through extreme measures to prove a "fleshly resurrection of God", when it contradicts the Scriptures?  God in the flesh is a demonic teaching.  Is that all they have?   Modalism???

Take Care,
Brother Rando  

Jehovah`s Witness

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Brother Rando

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Brother Rando is a student of Prophecy and one of Jehovah's Witnesses in good standing with the Faithful and Discreet slave. His interests are directed towards how the time of the end would come about. The earth’s population today is going through a physical, spiritual and emotional tribulation that has been prophesied concerning a time of distress as it enters into a cleansing period of removing wickedness by means of God’s Kingdom. (Daniel 12:1) Brother Rando’s discussions are of keen interest to many who await for God's Kingdom. He asserts that his discussions are just that, and not Prophecies, nor does he make the claim to be inspired. His authority is the Bible. He proclaims the year 2034 to be of very high interest to all. Like a GPS, that gives Insight to location, 2034 allows us to gauge where we are in the stream of time according to God’s Will. According to Brother Rando, the Bible carries two thoughts in it’s passages, one is fleshy and the other is spiritual. Jesus Christ warned Peter of thinking fleshy and that this type of thinking is not from God. (Matthew 16:23) In order to measure time, a method of measurement is needed. Measuring time by “the day” would mean a 24 hour period. However, measuring “the day” spiritually would mean a period of time yet to be revealed using other scripture to interpret the method needed. By looking into the Bible, we can actually determine what God meant by “the day” when looking into his Word on how his Will would come about. As we read (Genesis 2:16-17) the punishment for disobedience was death “in the day”. As time went on, the scriptures do begin to reveal the time frame of “the day”. According to Genesis 5:5, Adam lived 930 years and then he died. Satan who thinks like a man, got it wrong! (Genesis 3:4-5) Why Study the Bible

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In Brother Rando’s research of the Bible, he found scripture does interpret other scripture. The answer to how long a day was, according to God’s Will was found in Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8. This is vital to gaining understanding in how we are to measure time in God’s view. Spiritually and not fleshy or physical. A day in heavens time is a thousand years to us. It’s by this method we can measure time and where we are in the stream of time of the end. In answer Jesus said to them: “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” (John 2:19) Was Jesus indicating that he was the Temple of God, God’s Kingdom? And that the temple would in fact be destroyed or broken down? According to God’s Word, the following scripture is the basis for Salvation. “For if you publicly declare that ‘word in your own mouth,’ that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9) In order for John 2:19 and Romans 10:9 to come in line, did Jesus utter a prophecy about God's Kingdom since he stated, “I will raise it up”? IF the basis for salvation is that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him up. We can conclude that Jesus did not raise himself up, but it was God that raised him from the dead since he was dead and conscious of nothing at all. (Ecc 9:5) Jesus prophesied that HE would raise God's Kingdom. (Rev 5:10) Jesus was speaking prophetically of raising the temple within the third day of a thousand years. Jesus warned Peter not to think the thoughts of man. (Matthew 16:23) Based on 2 Peter 3:8 we are able to determine the time frame to when God’s Kingdom would be raised up by Jesus Christ. Jesus was put to death on Nisan 14, 33CE. The two days would actually represent two thousand years and we come up with the year 2033. Jesus stated,“in three days I will raise it up.” So the third day is upon us in 2034.

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“I fully support, acknowledge and cooperate with *The Faithful Steward and Its' Governing Body* of Jehovah’s Witnesses.” I am property of the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" that Jesus, my brother, is appointing over his belongings. This Slave is the Governing Body of Jehovah's Earthly Organization known Worldwide as "Jehovah's Witnesses". When the Mountain-like organizations act against God's chosen people after Babylon has been destroyed, Jehovah will slaughter those who are touching the pupils of his eyes. Even though Babylon the Great is spoken as a woman and she has fallen in (Rev. 14:8), the sacred secret is that she is not a woman at all, but the World of False Religion that will be utterly destroyed by the personal hand of Jesus Christ as (King Abaddon) in the coming Great Tribulation never to be found again! (Matthew 24:14)

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Secular Historians point to the Temple in Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans. But was Jesus Christ speaking in a physical sense since that Temple is non-existent today? Jehovah Witnesses assert that Jesus under inspiration of Holy Spirit was actually prophesying about his spiritual body as the only means to approach his Heavenly Father. (John 14:6) Not the Temple made by hands or his fleshy body as Christendom claims, but his spiritual body, known as the Body of Christ. (1 Cor 12:27) This would actually be the Collective Representative of God’s Kingdom in how we can approach the One True God JEHOVAH. Brother Rando is not the first to come up with this time frame. In the first part of 1914, the Bible Students known as International Bible Students Association discussed the “time of trouble” on the printed page called The Bible Students Monthly. Early in 1914, an issue of The Bible Students Monthly was issued with the large bold heading “END OF WORLD IN 1914? Some have quoted the large headline of this tract as proof that Russell was expecting the “end of the world” in 1914. However, such neglect the subheading under the larger headline, which states: “NOT THE VIEW OF PASTOR RUSSELL NOR OF I.B.S.A.” International Bible Students Association: "Nevertheless, when viewed from God’s standpoint, we are still “shortly after” 1914. Although Russell himself did not think the time of trouble would be this long, he did allow that it could be. It is possible that the time allotted for this period is 120 years (1914+120=2034), but that these days will be “cut short” some time before they are allowed to reach their end. We do not put this forth as a “prophecy”, nor would we feel anything was wrong if 2034 came and went and nothing had happened as far the full binding of Satan and the destruction of his empire is concerned. All things are in God’s hands."

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According to the discussion, 1914 represents the year that the earth would enter into a time of distress and that time limit could very well be 120 years. Which again, brings up the year 2034. The year 1914 is derived by a prophecy of the end of the Gentile times. Brother Rando insists that we should not live by a date, but to use this time to get right with God. Jesus continually pointed that the people who were on the earth when he would raise God’s Temple would be like those people in Noah’s time, taking no note. Where do the 120 years come from? If we read Genesis 6:3, most people think of this scripture in the fleshy sense of man’s lifespan. But could there be a spiritual meaning, giving those with Insight a divine warning? The Bible does say, “make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end.” (Daniel 12:4) Could it be, this world has entered into it’s Last Days in 1914? (1 Timothy 3:1-5) Yet there is another scripture that helps us measure the time. In Ecclesiastes 6:6 it reads, “Even supposing that he has lived a thousand years twice over and yet he has not seen what is good, is it not to just one place that everyone is going?” The chapter talks about vanity and that if a person actually lived two thousand years without God’s Kingdom we are all heading to the same place. Since death was the punishment, we would need God’s Kingdom to conquer death, the place we all are heading. A thousand years twice over is two thousand years. Simple math again brings us to the time of 2034, when the second thousand years has been brought to it’s finish. Could Christ Millennial reign be from 2034 to 3034? We don’t know. Jesus stated, he would raise God’s Temple in the third day, so we can expect God's Kingdom to be fully operating sometime between the years 2034 and 3034. However, Jesus Christ was risen first thing on the very morning in the third day. Most Bible readers are in agreement that Christ does rule for a thousand years.

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Armageddon is the actual cleansing of the earth from all wickedness. If in the literal sense, it would consist of angels coming down from heaven to bring death to all those rejecting the Kingdom of God. But if it is spiritual, Armageddon could very will take place without the knowledge that it is actually occurring. If this is the case, then Armageddon would commence without the knowledge that the wicked are simply dying off. There seems to be evidence in scripture to how God destroyed the forefather’s in the wilderness. They died off in the wilderness at the hand of the destroyer without knowing of such, as Paul eloquently explains in 1 Corinthians 10:1-10. If.....

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