Jehovah`s Witness/SOUL(IGNORE PREVIOUS LETTER)
QUESTION: Hello again SISTER T. I ommitted an important detail, argument number 5. Your brothers answer to the argument "Why Jehovah didnt know Adam and Eve would sin?" with the argument "Man has free will", so I judge this as necessary to add to the flesh-soul problem.
I hope you dont feel like you are teached by a source other than GB. I chose you because youre a new expert here, some experts I have judged as unworthy to communicate with due to their hatred on different beliefs. It seems they hate other christians and accept atheists. I dont belong to any religious group, Im a free researcher.
Here is the message again with 5) added
"Hello believer in Christ.
I know that all Protestant splits - 7th dayAdventists, Bible Students, Jehovahs Witnesses etc. reject an immaterial soul in man, because they believe
1)it contradicts the resurrection doctrine
2)most of the times its connected with immortality, therefore it contradicts the death doctrine in the garden of Eden
I will not claim youre in error and others correct. Maybe you are 50% correct. Interpretation of OT and NT is difficult.
What I want to ask is something from reality.
IF MAN IS THE FLESH THEN
1)WHY HE PERCEIVES HIMSELF AS ONE, SINCE THERE ARE TRILLIONS OF SMALL BODIES IN HIS CELLS, EACH ONE CARRYING A DIFFERENT TASK?
2)WHY HE HAS NO IDEA ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN HIS BODY RIGHT NOW, FOR EXAMPLE IN BRAIN CELLS?
3)WHY HE CONTINUES TO EXIST AS THE SAME ENTITY, SINCE CELLS DIE AND MANY GET REPLACED BY NEW?
4)WHO EXPERIENCES THE WORLD THROUGH THE BRAIN? WHO SEES A BRIGHT PICTURE IN HIS BRAIN, HEARS SOUNDS, SMELLS ODORS, TASTES FOODS, TOUCHES THINGS? WHO FEELS THE EFFECTS OF THE NERVOUS SYSTEM?
5)WHY MAN HAS FREE WILL INSTEAD OF CARRYING DETERMINED ROBOTIC CELL TASKS?
If you are interested in discussion, we can later focus on OT and NT.
Have a good day"
ANSWER: Hello and thanks for writing....
First let me say that I am no wheres near being a scientist and I do not know the ends and outs of the cells and how they function and brain cells and so forth, I'm only a student of the Bible and the Bible is not a science book, although some things in the Bible touches on Science because the creator of the entire universe is the one who authored the Bible.
I'm probably not as smart as you are, but I'll attempt to answer your questions and then, please, if you don't mind, I suggest you read the brochure The Origin of Life on our website, jw.org (Our website is so awesome! Please visit it when you can)
And Was Life Created
1) Our bodies are made up of a whole bunch of cells that do perform different duties that make us whole. It's like this, if you take out the cells then there is not a person, all cells work together to make a person who they are. A part from the body the different cells are not a person, they are just tissue.
The soul is not separate from the body, because if that were true, and if a person did have a soul that left the body and floated to other places and continued living and never dying, the cells would still be left back with the body, the cells would not be floating around, because the cells are fleshly which include DNA that gives us the blueprint of who we are, no two fingerprints are the same. So there's just no way that there is a soul apart from a body. The body also needs blood (which is made up of cells) in order to live...if we bleed out, we die along with all the cells. We see when people are given organ transplants, they have to rush the organ to the patient before it becomes useless.
Lev 17:11 "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for YOU to make atonement for YOUR souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement by the soul [in it]"
Ez. 18:4 ".......The soul that is sinning—it itself will die."
Ecc. 9:5 "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten"
I'm sure you've been shown this scripture that Adam became a living soul, not that he was given a soul, Jehovah formed Adam from the dust, and thus Adam became a living soul.
Gen 2:7 "And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul"
1 Cor 15:45 "It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life‐giving spirit"
Just like if you bake some cookies, you need milk, flour, sugar, salt, eggs, butter, all those ingredients when they are put together come to make the cookie dough, once you put it in the oven heat up those same ingredients, it becomes a yummy cookie. But if you have flour by itself, it's not a cookie, if you have sugar by itself, it's not a cookie, and so on. So you have to have all the ingredients to make the cookie and the correct amounts.
So all of our unique cells as a whole make up that unique person.
2) Well if you go to a doctor and get hooked up to the machines, they can see brain activity. But since Jehovah created us in the marvelous way that he did, and since Adam sinned and we as his offspring are imperfect we see the effects of some cells not functioning properly and is why there is Autism and things like that. If something is not working right, we can see that in people by sometimes looking at them or hearing them speak, you may say, something isn't quite right with that person. After a person dies some doctors do research to find out what went wrong, etc. with a person. I'm not being phaceous, I'm sure you know this already.
But since the soul is the actual person, then we can not come out of ourselves or go into ourselves to see what's going on in there.
Our creator has to be credited with how we are made, as the Psalmist said:
Ps. 139:14 "I shall laud you because in a fear‐inspiring way I am wonderfully made.
Your works are wonderful, As my soul is very well aware."
3) When Jehovah created Adam, he created him to live forever and never die, so that's why cells keep renewing themselves, they do not change into different cells, but are renewed, like you said, they are the same person (please remember I'm not a scientist) like when you get a pimple on your face, and you pick it, a scab will form, then say you keep picking the scab, what happens? The skin darkens, and you are left with a blemish right? But after some time, that blemish gradually goes away because the cells keep renewing themselves, but your face doesn't look different, so it's still you. Those cells follow a certain pattern that Jehovah laid out, as we see from this scripture
Ps. 139:16 "Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed And there was not yet one among them."
We were made to live forever, if Adam had never sinned he'd still be alive today and is why no one wants to die, we see people doing everything they can to prolong their lives...and that's because we weren't made to die to begin with.
Ecc 3:11"Everything he has made pretty in its time. Even time indefinite he has put in their heart, that mankind may never find out the work that the [true] God has made from the start to the finish"
And we also see from this scripture that we will never find out the work that God has made from start to finish.
4) Jehovah made us to enjoy life, thus he gave us the senses to be able to enjoy life because God is a happy God, (1 Tim. 1:11) and since we were made in his image,(Gen. 1:26) having the ability to have the qualities he has, such as love, justice, wisdom, power, then he wants us to be happy as well. We see that Jehovah is the one who planted the Garden in Eden for Adam to enjoy! (Gen. 2:8) He wants us to be Happy.
5) I'll use the scripture at Gen. 1:26, again as we were created in God's image. So since God wanted man to enjoy life, it's only logical that he would not make him be robotic, we have a choice, just like the angels had a choice to serve God or not to. As we see some didn't.
Since God is Love, (1 John 4:8) and he loves us, (John 3:16) his creation, and he was very happy with what he made as you would be if you created a masterpiece, you'd be thrilled with the outcome, as God was (Gen. 1:31) and since God has feelings, then he would want us to love him from our hearts, not because he made us robots or forced us. It would not be genuine if we didn't have free will to do so or not to do so. (Matt 10:29-31; 1 John 4:19)
Let's say you are a grandparent, when your grandchild comes to you and says, I love you, from their heart, it means much more then if the mom had to say every time, tell grandpa you love him.
When Jehovah told the Israelite's that if they kept his commandments they would be his special property (Ex 19:5,6) and after giving them the laws he asked them a few times, and they said they were willing to keep his commandments of their own free will (Ex. 19:8; Ex. 24:3,4,7,8)....Jehovah didn't go back on his word but it was them who didn't keep their word, and it caused Him pain. (Ps78:41)
I'm happy to discuss the Scriptures, we say Hebrew and Greek scriptures because of 2 Tim 3:16 that says all scripture is inspired of God, so it really should not be called old and new because the Hebrew scriptures show prophecies, especially about Jesus, that are fulfilled in the Greek, and Bible writer's of the Greek scriptures quoted, Jesus too, from the Hebrew scriptures...
Have a good day!
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Your long answer shows interest in the subject. Thanks.
I like sciences(except complicated scientific terms people have invented) and I believe you dont need to be a genetist etc. to grasp some things.
I was of that belief(man=flesh) till I realized that atheists and materialists are of the same. These arguments you read were posted in forums where atheists attack christians for their belief in "ghosts"(as atheists call spirits).
Some notes on the run. I believe DNA information is only for the flesh and doesnt define our character. If that was so, our character would be predetermined, environement and education would have no impact. Its the same with argument number 5. You agree we're not robots, God created us with free will. All bodies working in the various processes of our organism have not intelligence of their own(but artificial intelligence). They are particles of a machine, working under DNA and other codes God created. Finally, I didnt say that soul was created to live apart from a body. I dont know, maybe God created soul to experience the world only through a body. I just feel that there is something apart from the machine of the flesh, that is me. A subject(controller of the body,mind) and an object(tool,brain). I dont know more details at the moment.
On the scriptures. I must admit that I have the impression you are correct about the books of the Old Testament. Nothing is believed to survive after the death of the body. So this leads to the conclusion that man,soul,flesh are interpreted as one. Truly, I have to confess two things
1)OT BOOKS offer no hope after death, but nihilism. Man is said to sleep and never returns. About resurrection, this seems to be a later belief in Daniel's book who wrote on a foreign country. Its also in a small part of Job, but it seems strange to me since Job mostly talks about complete annihilation. Could scribes have added this later to remind the new resurrection belief?
2)So even though not 100%clear most of the ancient Jews had a monistic view of man. They dont think of a real entity apart from the body and which its' destination could be. BUT, lets not be so quick to judge.
1:1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, Jehovah stirred up the SPIRIT of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
This is from Daniel's times, where resurrection was teached for the first time. Here we have a mention for a spirit of Cyrus.
Things dont stop here. New Testament books offer new revelation. Again, I must confess that early Christianity was not too far from Judaism. But lets not forget Christianity is a new thing, its not Judaism so it must surely have elements foreign to Judaism, elements from Hellas,Egypt etc. NOT things that oppose Judaism and hail pagan religions, but things that instead of being true can help new people convert to Christianity. NT fullfills OT but it also sheds new light. Of course early Christians were faithful to the religion of Moses, but they dont seem to be nihilistic as their anchestors.
I will mention just one verse
5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Many say it doesnt talk about a soul but for "something" in this tabernacle. This was funny for me to read, it isnt "something", it says "WE". Then, they claim its only for a separate section of believers(you know 144000doctrine). No matter true or not, only a separate section of believers exist in tabernacles? All others are tabernacles and fleshes? Lol.
Something else I forgot. Do JWs believe God has a brain?
Im waiting for your comments. Have a great day
Hello thanks for writing,
Science is interesting. You mentioned that you use to think man=flesh. You know there are so many different beliefs in the world today and it's a good thing that we have the Bible in order to weed out false beliefs.
I don't believe in 'ghosts' either, because ghosts are defined as people who have died and their soul left their body and is floating around.
But there are wicked spirit creatures who pretend to be dead loved ones, and is how people are fooled into believing that some part of a person never dies. (1 Samuel 28:7-19) It's the lie that Satan first told when he told Eve she would not die, (Gen. 3:4) he continues this lie and people fall for it hook line and sinker.
I don't know how much you believe in the Bible, but it tells us what we are, we are souls...we don't have souls, we are souls...it's not separate. The confusion only comes from the lies of Satan, as God is not one of disorder. (1 Cor. 14:33) God is not messy. If he says souls die, if he says do not believe in spiritism and magic and fortune tellers (Deut. 18:10-12) it's for a good reason because he knows it's only a trick to keep people busy in trying to find out things that aren't even true, rather then doing his will.
DNA is a genetic code, the blueprint of what we are, I should have said, some of who we become I agree stems from our environment, etc, but also genetics too, that's why we can get things past down to us from our family. For example, My great grandma died from Asthma, my grandma didn't get Asthma, but my mom did, and I didn't, but my oldest son did.
It's no need to over complicate things, if something else was in control of our bodies, then we'd have to be robots, but we are not. We are souls, living souls made wonderfully by the God of this universe.
Yes, that's true, nothing survives after the death of the body which is also called a soul.
1) Actually the Hebrew Scriptures do speak of a hope for dead ones...one is like you mentioned about Job, (Job 14:14,15)
Hosea 13:14 “From the hand of She′ol I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O She′ol? Compassion itself will be concealed from my eyes."
We also see that Elijah resurrected people (1 Kings 17:8-24)
2) God himself alluded to a resurrection when he gave the first prophecy in Eden. When sentencing “the original serpent,” Satan the Devil, God said: “I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” (Revelation 12:9; Genesis 3:14, 15) Bruising the heel of the woman’s seed meant the killing of Jesus Christ. If that Seed was to bruise the serpent’s head thereafter, Christ would have to be raised from the dead.
When we read in Ezra about rousing the spirit, it's not speaking of something apart from the body, it's more like this...let's say you are on a sports team and in school, and this is an important game, the school usually has what they call a pep rally to rouse the spirit of the team members...it just means to get them in the frame of mind to carry out whatever it is that needs to be accomplished.
So we see in this scripture here their spirit was roused up to do work
Haggai 1:14 " And Jehovah proceeded to rouse up the spirit of Ze·rub′ba·bel the son of She·al′ti·el, the governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua the son of Je·hoz′a·dak the high priest, and the spirit of all the remaining ones of the people; and they began to enter in and to do the work in the house of Jehovah of armies their God."
Also Ezra 1:5 "Then the heads of the fathers of Judah and of Benjamin and the priests and the Levites rose up, even everyone whose spirit the [true] God had roused, to go up and rebuild the house of Jehovah, which was in Jerusalem"
Since Jesus was the end of the law that Moses received as it was by Jehovah, Christianity was also given by Jehovah, the principles are mostly the same. If the religious leaders had not rejected Jesus when he came then they would have been priests to God's kingdom but they lost that privilege. (Ex. 19:5,6; Matt 21:43)
Regarding 2 Cor. 5:4 yes this is speaking of the ones who will be in heaven with Jesus, since flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom, (1 Cor 15:50) then they will have to be given new spirit bodies, (1 Cor 15:44) the body that everyone has now is imperfect, but when the ones who go to heaven are given their new spirit body it will be perfect! That's why it says they will be changed...(1 Cor. 15:50-54)
You asked do we believe Jehovah has a brain...not in the sense of our brains, because God is not flesh, and our brains are. God is invisible, our brains are visible...The Bibles says God is a Spirit (John 4:24)