Jehovah`s Witness/THE BEAST THAT WAS, IS NOT AND YET IS
QUESTION: Hello Mr Brenton. I hope youre well.
I must thank the two sisters for the articles they copied pasted in my question about the Beast of Rev 17. But I feel uncomfortable cause this is the 4th time I try to get an answer to a specific question and doubt.
I'll be very simple.
The angel says "John look, were on the 1st century and 5 kings are fallen, one is and the other hasnt yet come but will not stay for long. John look, were on the 1st century and 10 horns have not risen yet, but will receive kingship for an hour in the future. John look, we're on the 1st century and the Beast you saw was, is not and will ascend out of the bottomless pit".
I think its very clear that since the angel uses the 1st century as point of reference for heads and horns, hes doing the same with the eighth king. He doesnt say "John we're during World War2 in the 20nd century and the Beast that was and is not, will appear again. Then, the same should be applied to the Harlot, heads and horns.
So how do JWs explain this?
A few notes about what I see. Im not a preterist and I dont deny UN being present in Rev17 if JWs are afraid that I bring down the roof of the whole Watchtower interpretation. No, I actually believe that UN are the 10 horns who prepare the ground for the final Christ of Satan, the Antichrist. I believe Rev 17 uses kings instead of kingdoms for the heads cause they are literal persons and important kings and christs of Satan that opposed Jehovah through the years. The eighth is of the seven, so it seems a resurrection of a very important head. I actually believe he's N***** , cause as Jesus is the First and Last, the slain Lamp, the Christ of Jehovah, so is N***** the First and Last, the wounded Beast, the Christ(Anti) of Satan. If Christ is a literal person, then Antichrist is a literal person too. All masony is deeply concerned with studying ziggurats, pyramids and all are talking about the return of the Great Teacher, the Great Globalizer who will grasp all nations under his control as he tried to do in the valley of Senaar.
Thank you very much.
ANSWER: Hi Chris,
thank you for your question.
I can see that there is confusion as to the time period. Your understanding is that John was seen these visions in the first century, (which is physically correct) but our understanding is that John's visions were related to y times in the future.
Every commentary I looked at says that in Revelation 1:10 where John records “ I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day,..” say that the “lords day “ mentioned there was a Sunday. With that view in mind it is a natural assumption to come tot the conclusion that what John saw may have related to the first century.
However we understand the term “lords day” as referring to a future time. So John was looking at events that were to happen well into the future.
The Greek reads (according to my non JW interlinear
using English equivalent of the Greek, followed by the English translation
) egenomEn = I became
; en = in
; pneumati = spirit
; en = in
; tE = the
; kuriakE = master
; hEmera = day
The NWT reads “By inspiration I came to be in
the Lord’s day” (bold and underline mine)
The normal Greek word for master or lord is kuros. This word is a noun. In Rev 1:10 you can see it is ads to the noun “day” Of the word rendered day one of my Lexicons tells us this about the word day
1) the day, used of the natural day, or the interval between sunrise and sunset, as distinguished from and contrasted with the night
1a) in the daytime
1b) metaph., "the day" is regarded as the time for abstaining from indulgence, vice, crime, because acts of the sort are perpetrated at night and in darkness
2) of the civil day, or the space of twenty four hours (thus including the night)
2a) Eastern usage of this term differs from our western usage. Any part of a day is counted as a whole day, hence the expression "three days and three nights" does not mean literally three whole days, but at least one whole day plus part of two other days.
3) of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom
4)used of time in general, i.e. the days of his life.
As we can see just like our English use the Greek word can have several applications.
The question now is, which application should we use for Rev 1:10 number 1) or 3) 4).
Well we are told from verse 1 - 3 That God gives instructions to Jesus and Jesus passes it on to a messenger (angel who intern passes it on to John
1 “A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, even to all the things he saw. 3 Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near.” (nwt)
The work that Revelation speaks of Jesus as performing is definitely not confined to a twenty-four-hour “day.” The term “day” often means an extended period of time, as in the expression “Noah’s day.” (Luke 17:26) As Revelation shows that sometime after Jesus is granted rulership over the world of mankind he fights the “wild beast,” Satan’s beastly system of political control, and the kings of the earth and their armies. (Rev. 11:15; 12:10; ) Then he rules for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6) All of this is included in the “day” or period of Jesus’ rule of which the apostle John speaks.
There are other texts that identify the lords day as a “period of time”, a time of judgement and restoration . 1 Corinthians 1:6-8 “6 even as the testimony to Christ was confirmed among you- 7 so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ; 8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (RSV)
1 Corinthians 15:24-26; “24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (RSV)
Philippians 1:6, 10 “ And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ ...... 10 so that you may approve what is excellent, and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,” (RSV)
Philippians 2:16. “ holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.” (RSV)
So our understanding is that the lords day is talking of the period at the end of the gentile times (Luke 21:24) It is also the period of time the apostles asked about as recorded in Matthew 24 Luke 21 and Mark 13
That however is another topic.
Therefore the explanations to Revelation as seen by us (JW's) is referring to the Lords day in the period of time from world war one when nation first went against nation in a big way until Jesus finally hands back the kingdom to his father after he has reigned for 1000 years (1 Corinthians 15 :24-26 “ Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.” RSV)
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Thank you.
Let me clear it up.
We both believe that John saw the visions called Apocalypse in the First Century.We both believe that these visions are for the future. As I said, Im not a preterist, I dont believe that Apocalypse was fullfilled in the First Century. Since you made a long reply about the Lord's Day, I agree with you that no matter what is the meaning of the "day" in that verse, many things of Revelation are fullfilled on the Day of the Lord.
So far we agree. Now, what I say is that when the angel EXPLAINS some visions to John, he uses as POINT OF REFERENCE[says you're here, start counting from here] the First Century. Im NOT saying that these things are fullfilled in the First Century, the angel just uses this century to show John where he is on time. I mean, when he says "five are fallen, one is..." this indicates that the five fell before John's time and the one was existing during that time.
If somebody claims that when the angel talks about the Beast that was,is not and yet is, he uses the Twentieth Century and World War Two as starting point, that is "John, we're on the Twentienth Century", then this should be applied to the heads, horns and Harlot. It would indicate that five are fallen before World War II, one is, ten horns will rise in the future after World War II and so on.... If not, how could the angel use such a conflicting method of counting?
Im just saying it seems the angel shows that the Beast was in existence before John's time, Im not claiming hes not going to return in the future. I hope you now get me.
So, I see problems with the Beast being UN, its more appropriate to say that the TEN HORNS are UN. If the Beast was UNO then it should also have a separate army from the kings of the world in the Battle of Armageddon. And I saw the Beast and the Kings of the Earth and their armies gathered together..
It seems he's just one, just a literal person that all the kings of the earth[United Nations] give him their power.
Hello again Chris,
Sorry I miss understood your first question. I took it that you saw those events as having happened in the first century because of the way you emphasized the first century
The angel says "John look, were on the 1st century …... John look, were on the 1st century..... John look, we're on the 1st century”
When one examines the Bible, we see that political regimes are refereed to as beasts. A prime example of this is seen in the book of Daniel
“ 2 I happened to be beholding in my visions during the night, and, see there! the four winds of the heavens were stirring up the vast sea. 3 And four huge beasts were coming up out of the sea, each one being different from the others. 4 “The first one was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I kept on beholding until its wings were plucked out, and it was lifted up from the earth and was made to stand up on two feet just like a man, and there was given to it the heart of a man. 5 “And, see there! another beast, a second one, it being like a bear. And on one side it was raised up, and there were three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and this is what they were saying to it, ‘Get up, eat much flesh.’ 6 “After this I kept on beholding, and, see there! another [beast], one like a leopard, but it had four wings of a flying creature on its back. And the beast had four heads, and there was given to it rulership indeed.” (NWT)
The Identity of these beasts are answered for us.
A commentary on the book of Daniel by Matthew Henry says this
“His vision of God’s throne of government and judgment, #Da 7:9-14.
We agree with him. The beasts refer to governments, or, as as call them, “world powers” the had effect on Gods people over the years.
This also coincides with the vision of the great statue recorded in Daniel chapter 2. I will leave it to you to read.
Commentary in my “New King James Bible” study edition agrees with what we say as well. The head was Babylon, the chest (and the ram) was Medo-Persia; the belly (and the goat) was Greece, the legs (beast with iron teeth) was Rome.
Before Daniels time there was Egypt. And Assyria - not mentioned in Daniel.
The five that have fallen in Revelation refer to those world powers that had effect on Gods people
The identity of the seventh is where JWs differ from other commentaries.
The seven head are the seven major world powers. The wild beast with ten horns (representing earthly completeness) we see as representing all governments that have excised until the battle of Armageddon.
Now we also differ as to the identity of the harlot sitting on the wild beast. But that is another subject
So the five that had fallen were EGYPT , ASSYRIA,, BABYLON, MEDO-PERSIA, GREECE
The one that is ,,, was Rome – the effects of the Roman empire lasted centuries
and one is still to come We understand that to be Anglo- America that history shows gradually grew out of the Roman Empire
Explaining why we understand things that way is beyond the limitations of this forum.
I tried to find concise answers on the jw.org website but failed. If yo want an in-depth answer to those things I suggest you ask a JW when they call or send me a private message with an email address where I can send you some PDF files.