Jehovah`s Witness/End of Gentile times- A question
Hello Brother Grunbaum..it has been a long time, hope all is well with you.
I was reading through the questions and answers and saw your discussion on the End Time of the Gentiles with the person that I am assuming by your response is or states to be a "Cult Expert"
Since you and I have had many discussions on this issue and have agreed to disagree..I will not go into a drawn out discussion, but rather pose a question to you so we can discuss and get clarity on this issue:
Luke 10: 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
When reading this passage of scripture in context we see that Jesus himself is testifying of an event that has past. This is also evinced by the use of the "past tense" word Beheld or Watched as translated in some versions.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
In studying Rev. 12 we see John is given a vision of what happened in the heavens, the narrative of Rev. includes past present and future. We also see in vs 10, that this is the event Jesus beheld as stated in Luke 10.
Now with these scriptural truths, is it not therefore obvious that these things did not take place in 1914?
I look forward to your response. As always I enjoy sharing and discussing scripture with you
Rev. Darryl Murphy
I hope all is well with you,lets look at this from the perspective of assumption,looking at your text then that would mean Satan was ousted over at lease 2,000 years ago,in your text Jesus didn't place a time on this event so it could have happened even before he came to earth while he was in heaven,so lets put another 1,000 years on when he beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
So we have 3,000 years as witnesses to have to explain away.So we have a general time line to deal with.
Now for your text to be accurate it would have to harmonize with other scriptures.
For instance your other text Rev.12
seem to be the same event where by Satan is cast out of heaven,does the time line fit,lets see if it does.
Luke was completed in like 58 CE,so from this we know at least the event had to occur before this date if not as I said thousands of years before.
Your other text Rev was completed 96 CE ,why is this important,because in the book it starts out by saying:
(Revelation 1:1) . . .A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.. . .
Now in your text at Rev 12 again is says:
"great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth"
If we assume as you suggest this event happened in the past tense as being described by Jesus how do we account for the time line.
John saw these events in a prophetic vision ,the ouster of Satan had to be yet future for a number of reasons.
We can assume it took place thousands of years before Johns vision but we would have to ignore what John said himself:
(Revelation 1:1) . . .the things that must shortly take place.. . .
Then Jesus says:
(Revelation 1:19) . . .Therefore write down the things you saw, and the things that are and the things that will take place after these. . .
We are told this several different times that the events he saw had not taken place yet:
(Revelation 22:6) . . .And he said to me: “These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah the God of the inspired expressions of the prophets sent his angel forth to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.. .
(Revelation 4:1) . . .After these things I saw, and, look! an opened door in heaven, and the first voice that I heard was as of a trumpet, speaking with me, saying: “Come on up here, and I shall show you the things that must take place. . .
Then if we want to ignore these verses and still say the ouster had already happened then we still have to explain the trouble Rev predicts for the earth just after his ouster:
(Revelation 12:9) . . .he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. .Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”
We would have to explain that the War in 1914 which was the greatest time of trouble and woes was merely just a coincidence.
We would have to say the war Jesus prophesied about was not World War I
(Matthew 24:7) . . .For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. . .
He could have been pointing to World War II not World War I
We would have to ignore Jehovah's Witnesses were pointing to 1914 some 40 years before,they didn't know a war would break out,they only knew the Gentile times ended in 1914.
We warned of 1914:
WT Jul 15 1894 P.266
the time of trouble
Zions WT Aug 1880
ending with the times of the Gentiles in 1914
Zions WT Nov 1880
A.D., 1914, and that it is the trouble of this 'Great day
New York newspaper The World.said this August 1914,
headline "End of All Kingdoms in 1914
According to the Calculations of Rev. Russell's "International Bible Students," This Is the "Time of Trouble" Spoken of by the Prophet Daniel, the Year 1914 Predicted in the Book "The Time Is at Hand," of Which Four Million Copies Have Been Sold, as the Date of the Downfall of the Kingdoms of Earth.
The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the "International Bible Students," best known as "Millennial Downers," have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914. "Look out for 1914!" has been the cry of the hundreds of traveling evangelists who, representing this strange creed
This is a lot to ignore about 1914 not to mention how 607 BCE fits 1914 ,to just take one verse to say his ouster already happened because Jesus made the statement of what he beheld.
Jesus as a prophet could say that as if it already happened ,I think people just dont want to believe us because of the time and money invested in their own religion to just put up stakes and accept our teachings,instead they thumb the pages of our Watchtower looking for anything ,hoping to see a misspelled word anything so they can justify going to Church.