Jehovah`s Witness/Just Talking...

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QUESTION: Hi Derrick,
Hope all is well...Sorry took so long for me to reply. Caught up with the talk I gave last night. It went well..I hope..Re: FDS, maybe you could fwd question to Robert Jones or Brenton, they seem to have their heads on straight. From what I understand the FDS is a group who gives the witnesses spiritual food at the proper time...Now who they are...I don't know..& I don't think anyone knows their identity. That's about all I know. Again, The Society is Mom to the congregation, so it's an uphill battle. I think you & I talked about that. For some or should I say most, it's their last stop. Most of them have sheep like personalities, don't think they were like that before they joined the witnesses. You have to be a sheep to follow....so most of them have that personality. Like you said with your Mom, they feel that witnesses are imperfectly perfect. Here's something to remember, most of them in fact all of them are attracted to the same message it's how each individual re-acts to the message. I am a bible student & so I have a study conductor. We are constantly reminded that the student does not BELONG TO THE STUDY CONDUCTOR...you have to share them & let them get to know others in the congregation, but some of them are very possessive with their students. I know of one study that changed to my study conductor because her conductor was so controlling. We get this message on a regular about this subject. Well the sister sits there & listens to the message, & does exactly how she pleases. Now is she a good witness...I'll let you answer that one. The more I'm there the more I realize they really feel what they do is right. Maybe yes & maybe no.  I go out in service & I love going out with the friends. I like what I'm learning, but when it doesn't line up...I just shut my mouth. I was talking to a sister the other day & we were talking about men looking at women & they shouldn't do that because it's the same as committing adultry. Well, I can understand a married man, but it's kind of fruitless because we all have eyes..but for a single man, if he doesn't look how will he find a mate...I'm just saying. The reason why Jesus (Jesus had to do what we couldn't do) was sent because he had to fulfill the law because we couldn't, too many of them & we would be sacrificing all day long...wouldn't have any thing to eat, because the way we sin, all day long. Again, Derrick as you know, the witnesses are well grounded, yes, there are some that see thru some of their doctrine, but the majority of them...They ain't going no where because to them...THEY HAVE THE ONLY TRUTH...& to think of it..it's a good thing that they are there, just think how bad they would be if they weren't. Well, that goes for all Christians. I read this site, just to see what's on folks mind...the fighting is still going on...but NOW I see most of them direct folks to JW.ORG...ain't that amazing. So I guess they are making little baby steps...There is a strange breed on this site, & I haven't come across any like them, yes, some are simular, but not this rude, but these lot, are hiding behind the computer, they wouldn't have the nerve to go door to door with their bad attitude...Again, maybe the Org. sent them there. This is where they best can be used, to blow off some steam...Well, at least they are committed to something many in today's world don't even consider there is anyone bigger than them.  
That's all for now...Hope to hear from you soon.

Dee

ANSWER: Good morning, Dee.  How are you?

Well, regarding the Faithful and Discreet Slave, this has become quite the hot topic as of late.  

You wrote...."From what I understand the FDS is a group who gives the witnesses spiritual food at the proper time...Now who they are...I don't know..& I don't think anyone knows their identity."

Well, the teaching changes so much, that it is hard to keep up with.  And now the identity of the "Slave" seems to be "hush, hush".  I wonder why no JWs will come forward and either confirm, or deny, that there has been a change in the teaching?

Basically Dee, the teaching has changed several times.  It was even once believed that Russell himself was the "Slave".  This was taught up until around 1927.  But for the last number of years, the teaching was that the Slave was the 144,000.  Now, it would seem that the "Slave" teaching has once again undergone some change, as it is now limited to the GOVERNING BODY.  

Sure do wish they would get it straight, since they tell everyone else that they must identify the "Slave".  

Actually Dee, the whole idea is based upon Matthew 24:45-51, and is a command for each CHRISTIAN to be faithful to Christ.  There is not one word there about "identifying" anything or anybody.  And if they would just read the passage, it becomes quite clear that the "faithful Slave" has the potential to become an "evil Slave", which possibility the JWs never seem to consider.  That is because they view the faithful slave and the evil slave as 2 "classes", which is not taught in the context of Matthew 24.  

Basically, this teaching has absolutely nothing to do with JWs, the GB, or the WT Society.  It is an exhortation for all Christians to be faithful.


You wrote..."The more I'm there the more I realize they really feel what they do is right. Maybe yes & maybe no.  I go out in service & I love going out with the friends. I like what I'm learning, but when it doesn't line up...I just shut my mouth. I was talking to a sister the other day & we were talking about men looking at women & they shouldn't do that because it's the same as committing adultry. Well, I can understand a married man, but it's kind of fruitless because we all have eyes..but for a single man, if he doesn't look how will he find a mate...I'm just saying."


Yes, let me try to clarify this one.  The idea they are saying about looking at a woman being adultery, is from Matthew 5:28....

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."


I think a distinction needs to be made between "looking at women", and "looking on a woman to LUST after her".  That is what Jesus was talking about.  I serious doubt there is a young, single man at the Kingdom Hall who doesn't LOOK at the women.  Or in most churches either, for that matter.  The question is, HOW is he looking?  There is nothing wrong with noticing a beautiful woman (provided the guy is single), but where the sin and adultery comes in, is when he looks and thinks dirty and sexual thoughts about her.  And then he dwells on those thoughts, and even becomes consumed by them to the point that he thinks about it every time he sees her.  That is definitely a sin.

But as you said...Its hard to find a mate if you walk around with blind-folds on too.  A man simply has to make sure that his "looking" doesn't turn into "lusting".  Nothing wrong with noticing a pretty woman...it is wrong to think impure thoughts about her, however.  Those things are reserved for marriage, and are no longer impure when done God's way (Heb. 13:4).


You said...."There is a strange breed on this site, & I haven't come across any like them, yes, some are simular, but not this rude, but these lot, are hiding behind the computer, they wouldn't have the nerve to go door to door with their bad attitude"


Yes, I think "strange breed" is a very accurate way to put it.  Some of the stuff that they post, is simply mind-boggling, how they can honestly think their remarks are in any way "Christian", or pleasing to Jehovah.

Here is what I think, Dee, and this is just my opinion, based on my observations.  I think the "strange breed" on this site are probably pretty much like the JWs you attend the KH with, if you simply were at one of their meetings.  I don't think they stand out at the KH as anything different (Rando, maybe), at least for the most part.  But I think the anonymity of the internet, allows them to show their true colors.  They can act in ways here, that they wouldn't dare to act face to face.  Like the guy who wrote to DW a few weeks back, talking about my family, while cowardly hiding behind his anonymity...I dare say that "guy" wouldn't have the guts to say that to my face.  That is how some of them are.  Pretty sad, really.

I have seen them defend their unchristian acts of lying and slander, by saying that this forum is a "different scenario" than the door-to-door work.  Well, of COURSE it is!  Just like an elegant restaurant is a different scenario than eating at McDonald's!  But does that mean that we aren't supposed to conduct ourselves as Christians in BOTH places?  Is it okay for me to shout out profanities, or throw food across the room at McDonald's, but not Peter Luger's Steakhouse?  

Their logic is nothing short of ridiculous.  When I have addressed them about their lies and slander, they have actually SAID that if I don't like it, I should leave the forum since I'm a non-JW.  So in their mind, they can lie because they think I shouldn't be here anyway.  And I have statements from them where they have defended their actions on that basis, that I can post, if they want to deny that this is the truth.

No, actually Christians are supposed to act like Christians....EVERYWHERE.  And I challenge any of them to show where I am wrong about that, from the Scripture.


Thank you for writing, Dee, and hope to talk again.  I've got a few more questions to answer, so I'm gonna take advantage of my day off from the snowfall, to get caught back up.  Take care, and have a great day.


Derrick

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Derrick,
Sorry for not getting back to you in a while..I was out sick for a while then returned to work & catching up on my emails, oy vey...Re: Looking at women, you are correct. It's the lusting after, that get's one in trouble.
This is a side bar...I looked on the site today, RE: The Spiritual Israel..When I read the bible I use two..I want to share something with you from the Good News Bible...It will be quite long. If you read it in the NWT, it's, anyone can interpret it to be different. Israel is not out of the picture yet. Read This..Romans 11:
God's Mercy on Israel
I ask, then: Did God reject his own people? Certainly not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people, whom he chose from the beginning. You know what the scripture says in the passage where Elijah pleads with God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me.” 4 What answer did God give him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not worshiped the false god Baal.” 5 It is the same way now: there is a small number left of those whom God has chosen because of his grace. 6 His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.

7 What then? The people of Israel did not find what they were looking for. It was only the small group that God chose who found it; the rest grew deaf to God's call. 8 As the scripture says, “God made their minds and hearts dull; to this very day they cannot see or hear.” 9 And David says,
“May they be caught and trapped at their feasts;
   may they fall, may they be punished!
10 May their eyes be blinded so that they cannot see;
   and make them bend under their troubles at all times.”

11 I ask, then: When the Jews stumbled, did they fall to their ruin? By no means! Because they sinned, salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make the Jews jealous of them. 12 The sin of the Jews brought rich blessings to the world, and their spiritual poverty brought rich blessings to the Gentiles. Then, how much greater the blessings will be when the complete number of Jews is included!

The Salvation of the Gentiles

13 I am speaking now to you Gentiles: As long as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I will take pride in my work. 14 Perhaps I can make the people of my own race jealous, and so be able to save some of them. 15 For when they were rejected, all other people were changed from God's enemies into his friends. What will it be, then, when they are accepted? It will be life for the dead!

16 If the first piece of bread is given to God, then the whole loaf is his also; and if the roots of a tree are offered to God, the branches are his also. 17 Some of the branches of the cultivated olive tree have been broken off, and a branch of a wild olive tree has been joined to it. You Gentiles are like that wild olive tree, and now you share the strong spiritual life of the Jews. 18 So then, you must not despise those who were broken off like branches. How can you be proud? You are just a branch; you don't support the roots—the roots support you.

19 But you will say, “Yes, but the branches were broken off to make room for me.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because they did not believe, while you remain in place because you do believe. But do not be proud of it; instead, be afraid. 21 God did not spare the Jews, who are like natural branches; do you think he will spare you? 22 Here we see how kind and how severe God is. He is severe toward those who have fallen, but kind to you—if you continue in his kindness. But if you do not, you too will be broken off. 23 And if the Jews abandon their unbelief, they will be put back in the place where they were; for God is able to do that. 24 You Gentiles are like the branch of a wild olive tree that is broken off and then, contrary to nature, is joined to a cultivated olive tree. The Jews are like this cultivated tree; and it will be much easier for God to join these broken-off branches to their own tree again.

God's Mercy on All

25 There is a secret truth, my friends, which I want you to know, for it will keep you from thinking how wise you are. It is that the stubbornness of the people of Israel is not permanent, but will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to God. 26 And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says,


“The Savior will come from Zion
   and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.
27 I will make this covenant with them
   when I take away their sins.”

28 Because they reject the Good News, the Jews are God's enemies for the sake of you Gentiles. But because of God's choice, they are his friends because of their ancestors. 29 For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses. 30 As for you Gentiles, you disobeyed God in the past; but now you have received God's mercy because the Jews were disobedient. 31 In the same way, because of the mercy that you have received, the Jews now disobey God, in order that they also may now[a] receive God's mercy. 32 For God has made all people prisoners of disobedience, so that he might show mercy to them all.

Praise to God

33 How great are God's riches! How deep are his wisdom and knowledge! Who can explain his decisions? Who can understand his ways? 34 As the scripture says,


“Who knows the mind of the Lord?
   Who is able to give him advice?
35 Who has ever given him anything,
   so that he had to pay it back?”

36 For all things were created by him, and all things exist through him and for him. To God be the glory forever! Amen.
So is Israel cut off..NOPE..all has been prophesied...God is the director of this earthly play & we are his puppets. What he wants to happen it will. I don't understand why folks want to take God/Jesus job. Why do folks become a part of something & only see themselves in the picture & toss everybody to the side..I'm will await your relpy...I was going to address Brenton but thought not. If I fwd him this from the Good News Bible, he would politely disagree. What the bible is saying...He added the Gentiles to make the Israelites jealous. A very simple tactic. If you offered something to someone & they didn't accept it, you'd offer it to someone else...dollars to donuts, the original person you offered it too may not show it right away, but they would say, Hey, that's was for me, then they would become jealous, but just because you offered it to someone else doesn't mean the offer doesn't still stand. God/Jesus told the Gentiles don't get too puffed up too, because you ain't all that either. God/Jesus used the Gentiles as an example to say, if you don't want it..I'll give it to others, they may appreciate it...Kind of like how we raise children..Ah, I think I hit something here...Children.  We are like children, so most of the time we have to be treated as such. One thing about humans we love to ostracize. We love to shun others because we think we are so safe. Amazing. I think what I fwd to you says it all..
Don't you ?

Dee

Answer
You know, Dee, I really appreciate these observations of yours.  Even though you are a JW study, and know their doctrine on this, you are still willing to just LOOK at the Scriptures.  And when you do that, you arrive at the obvious and correct conclusion that Romans 11 DOES settle this issue about Israel, and what is prophesied.  

You didn't turn it, try to change it, or MAKE it teach something it doesn't...You just READ it, and the meaning was obvious.  Such a valuable lesson there.


YOU:  "I don't understand why folks want to take God/Jesus job."

ME:  Yeah, you mean like turning us over to Satan, and deciding that we have no hope of being saved?  LOL.  Yes, it sure seems some people view themselves as being in the place of God.  I'm sure glad those ones are not in His seat, aren't you?  That would be bad for us.

I think it somehow, in some sick and twisted sort of way, gives them a feeling of being important or powerful.  


YOU:  "Why do folks become a part of something & only see themselves in the picture & toss everybody to the side..I'm will await your relpy..."

ME:  A sense of belonging to something big, perhaps?  That is the problem I have always had with the JW mind-set.  Not all JWs as people, but the mind-set they get from the Organization.  The Bible teaches clearly that salvation is found only in Jesus Christ...nothing more, and nothing less.  Not once are we ever told that being in an Organization has anything to do with it, yet I see these people get on here and tell people that if they are on the outside of the Organization, they are doomed.  Saw Grunbaum tell a guy yesterday that he will be "stinking road kill".  Sis T told you that if you "want to live, there is nowhere else to go"...speaking of the Organization.  If they were TRUE representatives of God, they would be pointing people to Jesus Christ...not the Organization.

Its the mind-set that they have had drilled into them...You have said it before, the "us against them" mentality.


Yes, do think what you sent, says it all.  The meaning of the chapter is so clear.  But when people have a doctrine that they feel obligated to defend, they tend to take great liberties with the Scriptures.  I think Brenton is genuinely a good person, and the most honest JW on this forum.  That being said, I am afraid he has fallen victim to the same type of thinking...that the Organization's doctrine MUST be correct, and must be defended, no matter how many Scriptural gymnastics have to be done, in order to defend it.

Take care, Dee.  Good to hear from you.  Take care.


Derrick

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

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29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

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I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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