Jehovah`s Witness/Gentile times continued

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QUESTION: Grunbaum as I said it is very caler you have no answers for Rev 11: 15 and the gentikle times in teh context of that chapter !

All you coul d is to try deomize me , spritilualize the context and somehow covince folks Jerusalem is not Jerusalem when Jesus said otherwise in the context of Luke 21: 24 - 26

Jerusalem is as such today that it is like a match to start the biggest war in human history ! The Bible in Zechariah 2 , 10 and 12   prophecies that in the very last days God will make Jerusalem a stumbling  block to the nations and that he will set he will set His foot on the olive mountain !

You fail;ed to answer my question re the seventh trumpet ?

Are the folks going to get an answer !

ANSWER: I already explained your text,Rev is a book of symbols and future prophecies.
In terms of the nation of Israel over in the middle east how could they be in prophecy in the NT when the entire nation rejects Jesus and the NT,SO THEY WERE REJECTED AND REPLACED WITH A SPIRITUAL NATION,New Jerusalem ,seem like you could understand if there is a new something then it replaced the old,scriptures are clear where it is :


(Galatians 4:26) . . .But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

That should be clear its no longer the city on earth,so then any prophecies would be about spiritual Israel.



So after the birth of the heavenly Kingdom in 1914 and after Satan was ousted then your text apply

(Revelation 11:15) . . .“The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, . . .

At the time of this writing it was still yet future,it doesn't mean that Jesus literally took the earthy kingdoms from Satan in 1914,it merly says it was giving to him.

I also explained he was told to sit or wait even after he became King which means he took no action.

Daniels passage is 1914:


(Daniel 2:44# . . .And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom . . .



But the action he mentioned is aftwards:


#Daniel 2:44# . . .It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite. . .



It wouldn't make sense to set up his Kingdom in 1914 and not proclaim its birth and to warn what it will do,if I understand your contention is it cant be 1914 since Satan is still in control so he couldn't have begun ruling.


Jesus said about this kingdom:


#Matthew 24:14# . . .And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.


In order for it to be preached about it has to exist,and since the end has not come then it must be in the forefront right now.


You cant give me a date if or when it will be established according to Daniel,the end has to come after the kingdom is established ,if its not even in existence then when will it be,Jesus clearly said:



#Matthew 24:14) . . .And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.



Looking at your timeline it makes no sense,you said:


"God will make Jerusalem a stumbling  block to the nations and that he will set he will set His foot on the olive mountain"



So are looking at literally New Jerusalem coming down from heaven to the earth.


(Revelation 21:2) 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven . . .



So again look at your timeline,it would have to be establiahed after a rapture since you cant say when or if it is now,then where does Jesus words about the proclamation fit,were talking post rapture now,plus where does Daniel fit:



Daniel 2:44# . . .It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite. . .



This would have to been done pre rapture or post,if before then when was the preaching of its done as a warning,Christendom is not doing it now only the witnesses,if its post then no warning was giving to heed this kingdom before the end as Jesus said,makes no since post since the rapture came.The time line doesn['t fit,plus no church believe its established right now thats why they dont preach the good news of the kingdom.


Christendom gospel is Jesus died and was resurrected not what Jesus said:

         "good news of the kingdom will be preached"


The kingdom message is not Jesus died and was resurrected.


The kingdom of God is not Jesus died and was resurrected,its a real governing body set to take action.

(Luke 21:24) . . .and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.



"somehow covince folks Jerusalem is not Jerusalem when Jesus said otherwise in the context of Luke 21: 24 - 26 "



Its not the one you believe and been taught no.


After they murdered Jesus earthly Jerusalem lost its special status forever and has been replaced I already proved that.



(Hebrews 11:10) . . .For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, the builder and maker of which [city] is God.

(Matthew 23:37-38) . . .Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. 38 Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU.. . .



Rejected and abandoned  doesn't equate it will be in prophecy in a book they dont even read,makes no since.




, Paul reminded Hebrew Christians :


(Hebrews 13:14) . . .for we do not have here a city that continues, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.






(

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks again for answering Grunbaum ! Again you failed to answer my question re the blowing of the seventh trumpet where the WTS puts the event before the opening of the sixth seal when the seventh seal is what commences it in Rev 8: 1 Why cant you folks admit your leaders are wrong .

Luke 21 :24

The(Jews/Jewish nation will fall by sword and taken as prisoners to all the nations
The veers in Matt 23 : 38 which you quote speaks about the same thing that Jerusalem was going to be destroyed and the Jews being taken captive to all the nations therefore leaving them abonded which was fulfilled just like Jesus predicted

You see Grunbaum anyone reading your answer can see you are running from the text and contex of Luke 21 while you even contradict yourself ! Context Grunbaum is never a true friend of a JW

Whet you are doing is reading the text agreeing that the first part of the verse speaks about the literal Jews then having folks believe it speaks of New Jerusalem which according to your religion is spiritual Israel and spiritual Israel = the 144 000! Then all the while you contredict yourself by quoting Matt 23 : 37 to prove the literal Jews and Jerusalem are spoken about when Matthew is speaking about the same prophecy !

Now let me demostrate for all to read just how absurd and hilarious your answer is by reading the verse your way !

New Jerusalem which is spiritual Israel the 144 000 will be trampled upon until the gentile times ended !

Now will you care to tell us just how the spiritual Israel(144 000) which is the New Jerusalem are / was trampled upon in heaven and by whom and how did the trampling ended in 1914 when the gentiles ended.

It gets even more absurd Grunbaum when one reads what your leaders teach about anointed who they said are the 144 000 who are the New Jerusalem ! They teach that their was a resurrection of the anointed in 1918 now that is 4 years after 1914 . In fact Grunbaum they were non existent for 1918 years , just insactly how do you trample upon something that is non existent for 1918 when the gentile times ended 4 prior to the time ! I am sure Grunbaum folks will find your answer very interesting?

In fact Grumbaum the WT leaders even contradicted  themselves re the New Jerusalem, well what else would one expect when folks dont allow the Word of God to speak for itself !

Here is the proof  Grunbaum !

March 15 1983 p 22 - 25 WT

This Jerusalem above is Jehovah womanlike organization in the heavens It is made up of the host of angels including the now glorified archangel Michael These serve in the role as wife to the sovereign Lord!
10)In fulfillment of this prophecy Jehovahs wife his grand organization of spirit creatures...
12)Jerusalem above Gods wifely organization
14)Logically therefore it is with regard to the bride , the lambs wife ...

In par 9 & 10 we are told that Jehovas wife is the angels including the Nr 1 angel Jesus .So Jesus tey said is both Gods son and his WIFE !

Then in Par 12 - 14 we are told God,s son who happens to his wife also has a wife, the 144 000 !!

If you go with the current teaching is the angels taken collectively and part of the heavenly organization !


Keepthat in mind , read on !

WT May 1 1957 p. 274

However the 144 000 together with their spiritual head Christ Jesus and all the angelic beings make up the universal organization of God, his wife !

In 1957 they were teaching that the 144 000 were both the wife of Jehovah and Michael .

I reccomend you read the article I provided from 1957

We trust in Jehovah and his heavenly organization .Christ Jesus his holy angels and the ressrected anointed

You see Jehovahs heavenly organization the New Jerusalem = Christ Jsus plus holy angels plus resurrected anointed in 1918


You quoted Rev 21 : 2 which says

I saw the New Jerusalem COMING DOWN from heaven !



When Grunbaum, is the New Jerusalem = the 144 000 COMING DOWN from heaven ?

You say Matt 23 : 37 - 38 says the Jews were rejected . It does not say Grunbaum , where do you see the word rejecred in that verse ?

Gal 4: 26 is not saying the earthly Jerusalem is no longer the city on the earth, you are reading what is not their !
         
the Bible tell us in the future that Jerusalem will become Gods dwelling with mankind in Zech 2 ! Read the chapters of Zechariah it is full of prophecies re Jerusalem in the final before Jesus physical return and Armageddon

The Kingdom is not about goverment it is about repentance and people flowing into it becoming children of God ! As Iv said Grunbaum JW have replaced Jesus victory on Golgota with that of a date , they will have you believ Jeus death was not enough to triumphover Satan , no they say he still had to fight it out with Satan in heaven in 1814

Jesus said that the Kingdom does not come with observable signs/ observations Lk 17: 21 yet JW will have you believe Jesus was saying you can work out the event before the actual coming via chronology in spite of the fact that Jesus told the Jews it was rigth there in there in there midst

They expected a goverment yet Jesus offered something totally different one that cannot be work out by a so called chronology which is calculated observations ! Jeus dont agree with you , paul dont agree with you either since Paul said Jesus already had a kingdom

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus who will judge the living and the dead at his APPEARING and his Kingdom . Jesus was not waiting to receive one ot to become a ling in the future he was born King , he died a King and rose a King an will return as a victoriuos king .

Jesus aid tax collectors and prostitutes entered into the Kingdom before the pharisees after they repented ! You tell me where was this government to whom they repented to enter>

Have a a nice day Grunbaum

ANSWER: Let me address these questions so the readers can decide for themselves which teaching is Demonic,which ever one that makes no sense would be Demon inspired because God wants his people to understand completely his purpose.





Again you failed to answer my question re the blowing of the seventh trumpet where the WTS puts the event before the opening of the sixth seal when the seventh seal is what commences it in Rev 8: 1 Why cant you folks admit your leaders are wrong .

(Revelation 8:1-2) . . .And when he opened the seventh seal, a silence occurred in heaven for about a half hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels that stand before God, and seven trumpets were given them.



You omitted where there was a period of silence,that represented prayers to be heard.Your whole contention is none of these events happened in 1914,

(Revelation 1:10) . . .By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day. . .

We say this was in the 1914/1919  time .


Your text:



(Revelation 8:1-4) . . .And when he opened the seventh seal, a silence occurred in heaven for about a half hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels that stand before God, and seven trumpets were given them. 3 And another angel arrived and stood at the altar, having a golden incense vessel; and a large quantity of incense was given him to offer it with the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar that was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense ascended from the hand of the angel with the prayers of the holy ones before God. . .

Witnesses were announcing that the times of the Gentiles would end in that 1914,the brothers thought they were going to heaven ,instead it was trouble ,they were sent to prison.


So thats why there was this silence in heaven.This is Gods visible organization as will be proved soon,after the silence, there is movement as shown :

(Revelation 8:5) . . .right away the angel took the incense vessel, and he filled it with some of the fire of the altar and hurled it to the earth. And thunders occurred and voices and lightnings and an earthquake.



Mind you these events took place as it said:

         "in the Lord’s day"



When was the Lords Day


*** it-2 p. 268 Lord’s Day ***

This included such happenings as the war in heaven and the ouster of Satan, the destruction of Babylon the Great and the kings of the earth and their armies, the binding and abyssing of Satan, the resurrection of the dead, and Christ’s Thousand Year Reign.



So the context of your text God took action and answered the prayers:





Revelation 8:5) . . .right away the angel took the incense vessel, and he filled it with some of the fire of the altar and hurled it to the earth. And thunders occurred and voices and lightnings and an earthquake.


So how are the symbolic fire, thunders, voices, lightnings, and earthquake to be interpreted
Fire was hurled to the earth in that God’s Kingdom was made the burning issue,it was fought in heaven and Satan was defeated so he continued his war on earth.


(Revelation 8:6) 6 And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to blow them.

Trumpet blasts were used to signal important days or noteworthy events.


(Leviticus 23:24) . . .Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘In the seventh month, on the first of the month, there should occur for YOU a complete rest, a memorial by the trumpet blast, a holy convention. . .



The Watchtower at this time was building up publishing facilities to sound the warning that the Churcher are false it was like a trumpet blast:


*** re chap. 21 p. 132 Jehovah’s Plagues on Christendom ***

the magazine The Golden Age, known today as Awake!, had been brought forth as “A Journal of Fact, Hope, and Conviction”—a trumpetlike instrument that would play a key role in exposing false religion’s political involvements.


Each of the trumpet blasts heralds a dramatic scene in which terrible plagues affect portions of the earth






New Jerusalem which is spiritual Israel the 144 000 will be trampled upon until the gentile times ended !

Now will you care to tell us just how the spiritual Israel(144 000) which is the New Jerusalem are / was trampled upon in heaven and by whom and how did the trampling ended in 1914 when the gentiles ended.







I dont know where you got this from,you must assume the New Jerusalem was the one I was talking about.


The problem with your beliefs is you are forced to apply references  in the NT to the earthy Jerusalem,THAT IS WHERE YOU WILL IN THE END BE EXCUTED.


lets examine it as if your doctrine is correct and JWs is false.

(Luke 21:24) . . .and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.



Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 C.E we know that for sure after World War I ended, the L.O.N gave the mandate over Palestine to hold till the year 1948

The Jews took over the western part of Palestine and brought into existence the modern nation of Israel.

Then in 1967Jerusalem was added took control over the west bank of the Jordan.


So looking at the text again:

(Luke 21:24) . . .and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.



So by any defination the literal city is not being trampled on since the 6day war


we do not see fulfilled the prophet spoke of:


(Isaiah 2:3-4) . . .For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.



Israel rely on the United States not Jehovah so I guess its clear the NT and OT is not speaking of the non-theocratic Israel.




Where is the fullment of this one as well since its on Israel in the east:


(Zechariah 8:23) . . .This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: “We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people.”’”



Go pull on a Jews skirt and see where it gets you,they dont were skirts anyway,how is Jehovah with the nation of Israel when they reject his NT,killed his son and have bombs to kill.


In referring to ‘Jerusalem’s being trampled by the Gentiles, Jesus had in mind what the earthly Jerusalem was before the trampling upon it by the Gentiles began. He himself had said somewhat earlier


(Matthew 5:34-35) . . .However, I say to YOU: Do not swear at all, neither by heaven, because it is God’s throne; 35 nor by earth, because it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King.

They were trampling upon God’s Kingdom as represented by city of Jerusalem which started in 607.

Jerusalem represemted Gods kingdom of ruling
 








When Grunbaum, is the New Jerusalem = the 144 000 COMING DOWN from heaven ?


That is his kingdom arangement being used by him in directing blessings to mankind here on earth during the 1,000 years.

Its not literal,I made this statement at the beginning remember:

"the readers can decide for themselves which teaching is Demonic,which ever one that makes no sense would be Demon inspired because God wants his people to understand completely his purpose"


Readers watch this video and see if this make sense of how large New Jerusalem is based on scripture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EwSC9X4WXQ




Its stupid to think this is a literal city literally coming down to earth and God is on earth as well.




The readers can see which teaching makes sense and which one is Demon inspired</b>






---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks again Grunbaum for answering !

Sorry Ive been a bit busy so have time to reply today as I add more and more contradictions for the folks to enjoy reading!!  

Amazingly you are trying to say I never quoted the context by inserting the Lords day  and prayers from Rev 8 then saying it happened in the Lords day which is 1914 !Then you quote not from teh Bible but from a WT the meaning of the Lord,s day without a single scripture to support it,s meaning !   

Yet the text is so clear what happens after the seventh trumpet is blown Rev 11: 15 - 18 none of the things that has happened yet as you are forced to symbolize it and as I said no mater how hard you try you are placing the event of the blowing of the seventh trumpet before the opening of the sixth seal when the SEVENTH SEAL commences the blowing of the seven trumpets! Their is now way out of it Grunbaum !

Now folks if you are reading this note I said I will show more contradictions as JW theology is never well taught out to uphold their 1914 myth! Grunbaum avoided the contradictions re the New Jerusalem I quoted from their material!

Now Grunbaum coming back to Rev 11: 15 agaan re the seventh trumpet and you placing the events in Rev 8 in 1914

Now the Bible says the blowing of the trumpets are the actions of angels while the FALLIBLE WT tells folks it are the actions of men!

The Bible shows the trumpets blows in order from 1 - 7!

Your leaders teach the blowing of the seven trumpets were fulfilled by JW conventions in the 1920,s ending in `1928 !

Yet you and all the JW say Revelation 11: 15 was fulfilled in 1914 !

As i said Rev 11: 15 follows the seventh trumpet yet Grunbaum your leadesr says the seven trumpets represents these conventions starting at Cedar point Ohio ending with the seventh trumpet blast in 1928

The WT leaders contradict themselves since Rev 11: 15 could not have been fullfiled in 1914 if they are saying the seventh trumpet blast was 1928 since God,s Kingdom shows to follow the blowing of the seventh trumpet which they say is 1914 !

Regarding 1914 and the Gentile times prior to 1914 they had a 100 & failure rate re what was going to happen! And just what did they say re the trumpet blast prior to 1914

Religion utterly destroyed!

The seventh trumpet sounds from August 1840 until the time of trouble or day of wrath is ended.Hence it DOUBTLESS ends with " the times of the Gentiles " and this forty years of conquest and therefore sounds until 1914 AD at the end of which Babylon the great will have fallen and the dragon be bound the nations being subdued  Three worlds and the harvest of the world 1877 p. 143

You see folks re the seventh trumpet and Gentile times witness  were told all religion would be destroyed in 1914 now they contradict themselves!  

Now Grunbaum you have spend time after time to prove that Israel and Jesrusalem  is what you say the Bible say it is and as I promised more contradictions are forth coming!

When Christians quote Rev 7 saying it speaks about the 12 tribes referring to Israel WT leaders and their rank and file members say it speaks about spiritual Israel and folks like you trying to say spiritual Israel has replaced literal Israel and Jerusalem !

Now when folks quote these verses to JW

Matt 19: 28 and Luke 21 : 30

....judging the twelve tribes of Israel

Trying to show that it will not make sense to say that the 144 000 cannot judge spiritual Israel since according to JW the 144 000 are the spiritual Israel

So to get out of the dilemma the WTS contradicted themselves

WT 10/3/15 p,25. par 6   

At Matthew 19: 28 and Luke 22: 30 we are told they will judge the twelve tribes of Israel !Whom do the twelve tribes of Israel picture in this context ?? They represent all those with an earthly hope those who put faith in Jesus sacrifice

See Grubaum this it what happens when one has to defend one theology instead of letting the Bible speak for itself

So the twleve tribes of Israel according to WT leaders are both a spiritual Israel and those with an earthly hope the great crowd of course !

Have another nice day Grunbaum !

Answer
Johan we can go around and around like two boxers just going around and around like a fight I had long before becoming a JW Minister and Prophet ,we put up our fists at each other and circled around and around all the while talking and never did get anywhere not a punch was thrown and everyone left,thats what were doing here,so lets cut through the chase.


I'm throwing the first blow at your jaw looking for a knock out ,you this question:



"When Grunbaum, is the New Jerusalem = the 144 000 COMING DOWN from heaven
That is his kingdom arangement being used by him in directing blessings to mankind here on earth during the 1,000 years





I said this:

Its not literal,I made this statement at the beginning remember:

"the readers can decide for themselves which teaching is Demonic,which ever one that makes no sense would be Demon inspired because God wants his people to understand completely his purpose"


Readers watch this video and see if this make sense of how large New Jerusalem is based on scripture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EwSC9X4WXQ




If this makes sense then you win if not you lose,let the readers decide for themselves if a city is 1,500 miles high.


Church people are forced to believe crazy stuff like this they have no choice since they reject our teachings.

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