Jehovah`s Witness/The gentile times continued!

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QUESTION: Grunbaum as for some reason you reply never seem to have come through but as I said I will continue with this point as it is extremely an important point to share!

As I said Rev 11: 15 does not seem to fit what your leaders are saying ! The Kingdoms of the WORLD BECAME His and his messiahs as Rev 11: 15 says !

The other problem I see is when reading the context it say in verse 16

...because you have taken your great power and begun to reign!

Morever Grunabaum when we read the context further in verse 18 we read

But the nations became wrathful,and your own wrath came and the appointed time for the dead to be judged and to give their reward to the slaves your prophets and to the holy ones and those fearing your name , the small and the great and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth!

1) Did God,s wrath came in 1914 ?

2)Was 1914 the appointed time for the dead to be judged ?

3)Was 1914 the appointed time to give rewards to his slaves the prophets ?

4)Was 1914 the appointed time to ruin those ruining the earth?

It is also a historical fact the the majority of the worlds leading historic scholars that the nations became wrathful way before 1914 with 1914 as ONE of them therefore it does little to support your case .All these leading historic scholars  do not agree that ALL the nations became wrathful in 1914 but only some of them and that the nations were already wrathful commencing between 1907 - 1908

It was not even a world war until 1917 until America entered the war ! Which was originally like with the 2nd world war an European skirmish

So how do you deal with all the context as I ve shown re the gentile TIMES  if Rev 11 : 15 is suppose to support your case when reading the context how does that support your teaching that the Kings had their day and the gentiles ended in 1914

Another major problem Grunbaum is take note it says

After the blowing of the seventh trumpet!

What you have here Grunbaum is you will have folks believe the seventh trumpet blew before the opening of the sixth seal. since the opening of the SEVENTH seal is what commences the seven trumpet blast?How do you get that right since even your leaders agree that the sixth seal has yet to be opened !

Would you be so kind to share for the readers finding your way around these problems presenting a cogent argument without attacking my character!

Have a nice and blessed day Grunbaum!

ANSWER: First of all you are interprating a symbolic book [Rev] without Gods spirit,without it you dont know what to take literal or what's represented by a symbol,thats first of all.

What ever you say here is not Divine teaching but teachings of Demons


(1 Timothy 4:1) . . ., paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons,

(2 Corinthians 11:14) . . .Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. . .

(2 Thessalonians 2:9) 9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents



You will say we are being taught by Demons we say the same thing that you are.

So we wont get anywhere like this,even so the fact remain one of us pay attention to Demonic teachings


So how do we logically and spiritually address this,I responded to your text the last time yet you still come right back as if you didn't read my response.      


         





So instead of going through all of this again lets take a closer look at Demonic teachings
because perhaps someone reading this will reconize it.maybe not you but someone might.



Obviously its not easy to reconize it because as this vese says:


   "Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light"


So he teaches darkness but it looks like its the light.


Still it can be exposed because this verse says:


(2 Corinthians 2:11) . . .that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs.

Demons would promote their teachings in a subtle way,for example you said how could Jesus be ruling since 1914 and yet we say the Devil is ruling,


You must have copied this from somewhere as its not your thinking,you read it and it made sense to you,you made mentioned of Jesus beholding Satan being cast down as if it already happned well before 1914 yet Jesus said:


(John 12:31) . . .Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.. . .

Its just a play of words to confuse the weak in this type of teaching,but its Demonic teaching.

First its said:


(Luke 10:18) 18 At that he said to them: “I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.


So that seem to support the teaching that this happned before we say in 1914,yet we read Jesus also saying:


(John 12:31) . . .Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.. . .


The average Church person doean't read and study ,and even if they do that dont have the right study aids.




We are clearly told:



(1 John 2:15-17) . . .Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.



So how would Jesus be ruling this world since 1914,its clear without Gods spirit as opposed to Demons scripture cant be understood.



Demons teachings are poisonous,It does not nourish or build up; it is not wholesome. It cannot be,its apostate as in beating their former slaves, as Jesus foretold:




(Matthew 24:48-49) . . .But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards. . .



They put out books that they were a Watchtower slave and many other books all Demonic.


Scripture is are taken out of context with the goal of drawing others away as the example I just showed.



13 Jesus said:



What, now, are the fruits of Demonic teaching:



 Cleverness

Oh, Jesus said he already saw Satan cast from heaven long before 1914,casting fear that the Kingdom was established in 1914.



So now lets look at when the times began ,if we can get that date correct then we can know when they ended.



It started with the Babylonian overthrow  when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem and took captive the dethroned king Zedekiah and the land was left desolate.We know it was to be 70 years,we dont know when it started 586 or 607 is dates ,one is Demonic the other is from God.


How do we see which is false.



Easy,Jehovah's Witnesses didn't make up 607 it had to come from written scripture in order to harmonize with history.


539 BCE is a mean date a date everyone agree is the date Babylon was overthrown.

We know from study that the times would be 2,520 days but realy years:



(Numbers 14:34) 34 By the number of the days that YOU spied out the land, forty days, a day for a year, a day for a year, YOU will answer for YOUR errors forty years,. . .

(Ezekiel 4:6) . . .A day for a year, a day for a year. . .


We didn't just make up scripture,it takes Gods spirit to understand his message.

So it 2,520 years from 586 or 607.



The prophet Isaiah’s restoration prophecy concerning Jerusalem and its temple, and release of the Jews.

(Isaiah 45:1) . . .This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of,. . .

(Ezra 1:2) . . .“This is what Cyrus the king of Persia has said, ‘All the kingdoms of the earth Jehovah the God of the heavens has given me, and he himself has commissioned me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.



The Bible record at Daniel 9:1 refers to “the first year of Darius, that his reign ran concurrent with that of Cyrus, Babylonian custom would place Cyrus’ first regnal year as running from Nisan of 538 to Nisan of 537 B.C.E

(Daniel 9:1-2) 9 In the first year of Da·ri´us the son of A·has·u·e´rus of the seed of the Medes, who had been made king over the kingdom of the Chal·de´ans; 2 in the first year of his reigning I myself, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, [namely,] seventy years.




So then Cyrus’ decree freeing the Jews to return to Jerusalem was made late in the year 538 or early in 537 B.C.E. This would allow time for the Jewish exiles to prepare to move out of Babylon and make the long trek to Judah and Jerusalem a trip that could take about four months :


They had to be there by the seventh month of the year 537 B.C.E no one can dispute this date:


(Ezra 3:1) . . .When the seventh month arrived the sons of Israel were in [their] cities.. . .




The seventh month is Oct of the year 537 B.C.E.,this was the end of the 70 years of Judah’s desolation that began in the same month, October of 607 not any other date because no other date can you get from scripture but 607.


537 they returned,they left 70 years earlier so no other date for the destruction can possibly be but 607,




so Jehovahs Witnesses teaching is proved to be divine and yours Demonic.



Let me see you take the date the Jews -left Babylon and come up with the date Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 I will wait to see how you do it,I dont want anything else but for you to prove to me that 1914 is wrong because Jerusalem was destroyed in 587.


Prophet  Grünbaum






---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks Grunbaum for answering again !

It is apparently very clear as Im sure folks who read your response can see you have no answer to my questions re Rev 11: 15 and the surrounding context if what JW say re the Gentile times is true.All youve done in your last response it to somehow convince folks I dont have the Holy Spirit and to share the WTS conjectured version of the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 and 2520 years which brings us to 1914 by interpreting passages from the Bible to make it seems to fit what they say. Now I have asked you four questions further in the context of Rev 11: 15 - 18 if they are correct and the gentile times ended and the kings had their day ! You have not answered a single one of them. All youve done is to try and prove from blending isolated verses why the WTS must be right .

You have not answered how they get it right to place the seventh trumpet before the opening of the sixth seal since the SEVENTH SEAL is what commences the the seven trumpet blast      

So when can I expect you to start answering them as DW is gone for a week and since I still want to reply to his response to another questioner re this subject when asked about this question !

ANSWER: Sir the theme of this discussion is the Gentile times is it not,you dont dictate how the question is answered. Now what readers would want to know is 1914 the end of the times like we say and they would want scriptural proof and that is what I provided.I started from the standpoint of both dates of 586 and 607 and systematically proved the gentile times began in 607 which is the date JWs doctrine of 1914 is based.



Now instead of disproving 607 which all can see you cant you ask question like:


1) Did God,s wrath came in 1914 ?

2)Was 1914 the appointed time for the dead to be judged ?

3)Was 1914 the appointed time to give rewards to his slaves the prophets ?

4)Was 1914 the appointed time to ruin those ruining the earth?



All of which are from the symbolic book of Revelation ,any reader who is following this will notice you resemble Demonic questions :



(Genesis 3:1) . . .“Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?. . .


Is it really so that 1914 was the appointed time

Is it really so that God,s wrath came in 1914



This tactic is exposed,you cant disprove 1914 from history or the bible as I challenged you in my last response remember:




"Let me see you take the date the Jews -left Babylon and come up with the date Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 I will wait to see how you do it,I dont want anything else but for you to prove to me that 1914 is wrong because Jerusalem was destroyed in 587"




This is the crux of the gentile times not asking the questions about Rev,going on apostate sites where they have tons of Demonic teachings on how 586 is the correct date cant help you
thats why instead of answering my response why 1914 is correct from the bible you just ignore that and want to change it to Rev to a series of "WHY" questions.


You choose the wrong one as I said before,I wont be diverted from the issue which you started namely:


  "If the Gentile times ended in 1914"


You said:


"My agenda is to get you show folks that if what you say re the gentile times is truth"



Well Johan I proved it for all the thousands possibly millions of readers who otherwise were inclined to believe otherwise and by the way this is how the book Rev starts out:




(Revelation 1:1) . . .A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs . . .



So all the questions you pose as proof 1914 is false can be interpreted from different views mainly because the events may or may not be real,may or may not have happened at the time of the writing because we are told :


1.things that must shortly take place
2.presented [it] in signs or symbols


So your questions like:


1) Did God,s wrath came in 1914 ?

2)Was 1914 the appointed time for the dead to be judged ?

3)Was 1914 the appointed time to give rewards to his slaves the prophets ?

4)Was 1914 the appointed time to ruin those ruining the earth?



Can be interpreted from the standpoint of symbolism not literal just like the beast is not a literal beast or the woman riding is not a literal woman.


So you failed thus far but you still have the chance to disprove 1914 was the end of the gentile times just answer my response as millions of my readers eagerly await your response.




Here is your challenge if you choose to accept it:


Let me see you take the date the Jews -left Babylon and come up with the date Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 I will wait to see how you do it,I dont want anything else but for you to prove to me that 1914 is wrong because Jerusalem was destroyed in 587.

This is what we as bible scholars know for sure.


1. Babylon was overthrown in 539 BCE  
2. The Jews to return to Jerusalem in 537 B.C.E
3. They left 70 years earlier


This is the basis for our platform that the gentile time began in 607 and ended in 1914
not how Rev proves or disprove 1914.


If you fail to address this platform then the discussion is over,I'm too busy to keep going around and around on this.






Prophet / Prince
Benyamin Grünbaum



Prophet  Grünbaum


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Grunbaum

You are moving the goalpost of the question , how indengenius of you ! Note the question and subject was not about the WTS/JW CHRONOLOGY re the Gentile times.My question was if the Gentile times ended and the Kings had their day in 1914 how does Rev 11: 15 support it! How does the context of Rev 11: 15 - 19 support it and your reply was :

YOU ARE ASKING DEMONIC QUESTIONS- LOL!

You then proceed to say these verses are only SYMBOLIC  ! I am sure the readers enjoy the way you have up till now answered my questions to such extend that one reader had to turn to DW for answers but since DW is gone for awhile no further exchange could take place.  

Instead of giving a cogent argument you spend the rest of the question to prove why the JW CHRONOLOGY is correct which is not what the question was about .

The point is quite simple if what they say is true and if the WT leadership wants JW to believe that the Gentile times and Rev 11: 15 was fulfilled in 1914 !

I do not think you have really taught your answer out well enough by saying Rev 11: 15 - 18 is only symbolic          

You are saying

1)God,s wrath

2)The time for the death to be judged

3)The time for the prophets , the holy ones and small and great whose fear to be rewarded

4)The time to bring ruins to those ruining the earth

Are symbolic !!!!

So all these are only symbolic and if that is true then there is not really going to be any real wrath from God , no real judgment ,no real reward of the holy ones. prophets etc and no bringing ruin those who ruin the earth!     

Im sure once again the folks are entertained by your answer!

You see Grunbaum you are forced to say symbolic because the context of Rev 11: 15 - 18 shows that your teaching does not fit the Bible nor history , one will have to conclude by symbolic you mean nothing will really materialize/ happen  since it is only fiction.

You will always be forced to symbolize the meaning in order to defend and uphold WT teaching and to prove it I will ask you to answer :

Jesus said: ...and Jerusalem will be trampled down by the GENTILES UNTIL the TIMES OF THE GENTILES are fulfilled ! Lk 21: 24  

If the Gentile times ended in 1914 why is Jerusalem still being trampled upon by the Gentiles and the world still under Gentile rule, more so than ever before?

Lets see if you can give a cogent answer without symbolizing it?  

You also failed to answer my question re the seventh trumpet since Rev 11: 15 put the events when the seventh trumpet is blown and you religion placed the event before the sixth seal is opened while the SEVENTH seal is what commences the seven trumpet blast!

Rev 8:1 And after he opened the seventh seal was opened there was silence inn heaven for half an hour And I saw the seven angels who stood before God and they were given seven trumpets  

In the context of Luke 21 : 24 - 26

Jesus said :There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars and upon the earth ....  Men will faint from fear and terror , apprehensive of what is coming on the world for the heavenly bodies will be shaken!

Jesus spoke about the same thing in Matt : 24 :29

Immediately after the distress of those days
the sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give it,s light
the stars will fall from the sky   
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken

Yet Grunbaum in Rev 6 : 12 - 14  Jesus reveals to John in a vision the same thing but he places the event

I WATCHED AS HE OPENED THE SIXTH SEAL

There was a great earthquake
The sun turned black
the whole moon turned blood red
the stars fell from the sky

YET

Rev 11: 15 - 18 place the event after the seventh trumpet when as Rev 8: 1 shows the the Seventh seal is what commences the seven trumpet blast

So Grunbaum how do your leaders get it right to place the the event before the sixth seal is opened when the seventh seal is what commences the blowing of the seven trumpets if the gentile times ended in 1914  ?

Have a nice day Grunbaum!

Answer
I said if you didn't address my response concerning 1914/gentile times/607 I would end this,I wont because I already knew you cant,greater minds than you have looked at this and cant deny these dates ,they are set in stone. I thought this was about 1914 and the gentile times,now you say:


"My question was if the Gentile times ended and the Kings had their day in 1914"


That is still about our belief that the gentile times ended in 1914,no matter how you twist or shake it ,it will still come down to this,I think you are the one moving the goal post back,every time I try to end this with the extra point you move it back and say Revelation was not answered,you as I said dont dictate how I respond to this, I do,by proving the known dates harmonize with our teachings logically mean the book of  Revelation is in complete harmony as well.  Other teachings have 586/7 and they dont mesh with the known dates,no other date but 607 does,so you dont have anything but to say :


"You will always be forced to symbolize the meaning in order to defend and uphold WT teaching and to prove it I will ask you to answer :

Jesus said: ...and Jerusalem will be trampled down by the GENTILES UNTIL the TIMES OF THE GENTILES are fulfilled ! Lk 21: 24  

If the Gentile times ended in 1914 why is Jerusalem still being trampled upon by the Gentiles and the world still under Gentile rule, more so than ever before?

Lets see if you can give a cogent answer without symbolizing it? "




Lets take a close look at this,Jerusalem over in the middle east was  desolated in the first-century because the Jews had rejected the Messiah Jesus.

It was becoming increasingly obvious that as a people they had not changed their attitude.They reject the NT and say to this day the deliverer has not come,so your text in Luke which Israel rejects dont apply to them ,how could it,this shows you dont understand scripture.


Israel does not show repentance over the wrongful act committed by their forefathers. The return of some to Palestine was not motivated by any love for YAHWEH or desire for his name to be magnified by fulfillment of his Word.



Obviously you are not a bible scholar to even ask this question. Israel joined the
United Nations, thus showing that its trust was not in YAHWEH like the faithful Jews who left Egypt but in the political nations of the world,they rely not on YAHWEH but missiles and bombs and the USA for its existence.

What you think then the text then apply to the period of time during which the geographic site of the ancient city of Jerusalem would be under Gentile domination and control.


The text concerning the appointed times of the nations carries the prophecy far beyond that point for the reasons I have just mentioned.

So for eschatological reasons it becomes essential to determine what significance the Scriptures attach to Jerusalem in order to ascertain whether the text relate only to the literal city of Jerusalem over in the middle east or to something additional and greater.


Jerusalem came to stand for the kingdom of the dynasty of King David, much as Washington, London, Paris, and Moscow represent the ruling powers of presentnations .



What TV preachers and others fail to understand is after Jerusalem was trampled on by the Babylonians no member of the Davidic dynasty again ruled from earthly Jerusalem.


So the Scriptures show that Jesus, the Messiah who Israel rejected and still rejects was born in the line of David and would rule from New Jerusalem ,not the old city on earth who killed the Messiah but heavenly Jerusalem,THIS FACT EVEN HIS FOLLOWERS DIDN'T CATCH,THOSE WHO SAT AT HIS FEET AND HEARD HIS VOICE:



(Acts 1:6) 6 When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”



I have commented on this passage on this site many times,the setting is Jesus had already died and close to going back to heaven when they asked this,it was a dumb question because he told them many times his Kingdom was not earthly.

So he would be on Mt Zion in heaven as King and the earthy city has nothing to do with the text.



So as I said the times began when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem and the prophetic words directed to Zedekiah was this:



(Ezekiel 21:25-27) . . .“And as for you, O deadly wounded, wicked chieftain of Israel, whose day has come in the time of the error of [the] end, 26 this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. 27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’



The one who has the legal right to the Davidic crown lost by Zedekiah is Jesus and when these times end he would give it to him.


So we say in 607 the Gentile powers exercised domination over the entire earth. The Davidic dynasty and rule suffered interruption, and so Jerusalem, or what it stood for, would continue to be trampled on as long as God’s kingdom, as functioning through David’s house, was kept in a low, inoperative state.


Twice in this prophecy concerning the time of the end, Jesus referred to the book of the prophet Daniel:



(Matthew 24:15) . . .Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place. . .

This also confirms the start in the year of Jerusalem’s destruction, 607 which I proved from scripture and history.


So when you incorrectly said:


"why is Jerusalem still being trampled upon by the Gentiles"



You then believe God still attach his Kingdom to this earthy city and that is not scriptual,Jesus made it clear how God views this city :


(Matthew 23:37-38) . . .Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. 38 Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. . .



So Jerusalem has nothing in bible prophecy in the NT,so the text dont apply to the nation of Israel but what it represented in 607.





Prophet Grünbaum  

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