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Jehovah`s Witness/If the Gentile times ended in 1914 - Cont

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QUESTION: Grunbaum I did not list the last response as private and you can always list it as open from your side and if you cannot I gladly post a response over again !

I am far from over re this subject , there is still a lot to discuss re this verse and subject!

Keep well

ANSWER: I changed it to public ,I would like you to answer my last response,too many to ignore,answer each one.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Tx Grunabaum I will wait and see if it comes up and then reply but if not will reply again on the original response!

Answer
I dont know what happned but here is the complete dialog:

Questioner: Johan
Category: Jehovah`s Witness
Private: No
Subject: If the Gentile times ended in 1914 ..?
Question: QUESTION: Grunbaum if the gentile times ended in 1914 alas WTS ,how does Rev 11: 15 support it ?

The kingdoms of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord and His messiah Rev 11: 15

ANSWER: Instead of rejecting you I choose to post this so other friends can beware of you and your cult expert questions.Frankly I'm surprised you rushed me instead of some of the others,I'm glad you did so when they read my response they can reject you.


Strange you dont try to hide your identity you come right out with Johan but not your signature "Cult Expert" ending.

We are aware your questions are designed to cast doubt and not to build up but tear down ones faith.

This is just another in the long lines of the "woes" in Rev that can cast our teachings as false that you started sometime back.

I want the true witnesses who might be reading this to remember the subtle designs by Satan


(1 Peter 5:8) 8 Keep YOUR senses, be watchful. YOUR adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour [someone. . .

So, then, we should not be surprised that the Devil is out to get the true witnesses on sites like this.


That is why Peter also said: “Keep your senses, be watchful"  dont think you are so strong that you can debate ones like Johan.


The Devil’s purpose in subtly approaching us is not to cause our death immediately,in fact we learned that he doesn't want to kill you,he would rather you are put out of the congregation then he later God will destroy you.


The real purpose of Satan’s approach is to destroy our good relationship with God,HE WONT PLACE A LARGE BOLDER IN YOU PATH WHY,simple you see it,he will place a little pebble you dont see then stub you toe and break your neck.




Each year some are overcome by Satan’s methods. They leave Jehovah. Many of them, in fact, must be disfellowshipped.


They ignore this verse:


(2 Corinthians 2:11) . . .that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs.




Prophet/Prince Grünbaum




---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I hope every person reading your response will see how you attack the person instead of answering the person !

What can be so subtle about my question that will lead JW folks asstray ? Is their something you dont want then to know Grunbaum?     

My agenda is to get you show folks that if what you say re the gentile times is truth then Rev 11: 15 will support it! Can you do it Grunbaum can you!  

Most JW say Rev 11: 15 was fullfilled in 1914 but I a lot of major problems with your teachings  if that is truth that the Kingdoms of this world has become the Kingdom of our Lord  and the gentile times supossely ended in 1914 ! What you chose to do with that is up to you !

Last year the WT published an article spending 5 pages just to prove who really rules the world giving Satan all the credit !

But JW which obviously will include you do not realize their leaders teach a contradiction re theis subject.


They say Rev 11:15 was fullfiled in 1914 but at the same time they say that the Kingdoms of the world belongs to Satan

So which is it Grunbaum ?

Did the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdom of the Lord and his Messaiah or is the Kingdom of the world Satan,s?

If the Kings had their day and the gentile times has ended in 1914 how does Rev 11: 15 support it?

You tell us !

ANSWER: So you followed up,just so you know I'm personally not scared of you and I will answer this question,not for you but for the friends who read on this site so they can see a cult expert at work.

You say:


"What can be so subtle about my question that will lead JW folks asstray"


Well you try to make it seem our teachings are false,is that not your purpose ,but what ones like you do is state out teachings,use our own sources and then interject Demonic teachings,its the subtle way its done to make weak or new ones wonder and waver.


You say:


"Most JW say Rev 11: 15 was fullfilled in 1914 but I a lot of major problems with your teachings"



So you cast doubt that our teachings are correct,then as proof you cited our own source.

Is that now how Satan works:


(Genesis 3:1) . . .So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?”. . .


Is it really so that what the Watchtower said is correct?



Cult Expert Johan:


They say Rev 11:15 was fullfiled in 1914 but at the same time they say that the Kingdoms of the world belongs to Satan




So right here is the deception,if one is a weak low hour publisher,rarely out in service,never comment at the meetings,last one there when the song is over,the first to leave ,he will become victim to your deception.



The arrows you shoot are deadly but my shield is polished and glittering as bright as the sun



(Ezekiel 21:9-10) . . .This is what Jehovah has said: “Say, ‘A sword, a sword! It has been sharpened, and it is also polished. 10 For the purpose of organizing a slaughter it has been sharpened; for the purpose of its getting a glitter it has been polished.’”’”. . .
And one gives it to be polished, in order to wield [it] with the hand. It—a sword has been sharpened, and it—it has been polished, in order to give it into the hand of a killer. . .


(Ezekiel 21:12) . . .for it itself has come to be against my people; it is against all the chieftains of Israel.. . .




You are attacking the wrong one Sir,but as I said I'm glad you did because now I can defeat your argument.



Lets look at his argument:


My agenda is to get you show folks that if what you say re the gentile times is truth then Rev 11: 15 will support it! Can you do it Grunbaum can you!  

Most JW say Rev 11: 15 was fullfilled in 1914 but I a lot of major problems with your teachings  if that is truth that the Kingdoms of this world has become the Kingdom of our Lord  and the gentile times supossely ended in 1914 ! What you chose to do with that is up to you !



The bible is in perfect harmony with our teachings and no ones elses,only ours.


Yes the Kingdom was established in AD 1914 but did that mean the Kingdom began ruling on the earth,or did Satan own all the earthy Kingdoms.


(Matthew 4:8-9) . . .Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: “All these things I will give you. . .


So its clear from scripture that Satan has the earthy Kingdoms,in 1914 we read:


(Revelation 12:7) . . .And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon. . .


Satan lost and was ousted and in symbolic terms we read:


(Revelation 11:15) . . .The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king. . .



But God in his own words says to the King Jesus:



(Psalm 110:1) . . .The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand. . .



So instead of taking the earthy realm of the Kingdom the victorous King after removing Satan from the heavenly realm is told symbolically to sit not take action yet on earth.


(Psalm 110:1) . . .Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

(1 Corinthians 15:25) 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his fee. . .

(Acts 2:34-36) . . .but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ,. . .


Paul also says:



(Hebrews 10:12-13) 12 But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.


It cant be litteraly he sat down at his right hand and is still just sitting there,it must mean something else.


(Psalm 110:2) . . .The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:] “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”


So the Devils rule is not over on the earth,he battled in heaven and lost and Michael is ruling in as the verses say in the midst of his enemies.Then after he is declared King in the text at Rev 11:15 we read this:





(Revelation 12:12) . . .On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”





So this question fails to cast doubt ,he asked again:


Most JW say Rev 11: 15 was fullfilled in 1914 but I a lot of major problems with your teachings  if that is truth that the Kingdoms of this world has become the Kingdom of our Lord  and the gentile times supossely ended in 1914 but at the same time they say that the Kingdoms of the world belongs to Satan.



Michael has every right to kill Satan instead of ousting him as the Gentile times emded in 1914,it only meant that God could rightly install who he wanted as King of his Kingdom ,it didn't mean it was the end as many thought and Satan continues to rule the earthy realm of the Kingdom but his time to control is short.


Its just a play of words that you tried to use ,Rev is a symbolic book which means its mostly in symbolism and only the FDS can explain the contents.



I'm still puzzled why you chose me with this ,your plan of attack should go after weakness not
strength.In the jungle a lion looks for the oldest and sickest one ,or one thats young and slow,he dont go after the swiftest and strongest.

Too late to adapt now because we're just too swift and you have been exposed on this site.

CHECKMATE





Prophet/Prince Grünbaum


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: You ask why I choss you ! Quite simple ! I want people to see what a fine Christian witness you are when asked real questions , questions that help JW to think, questions that might be the beginning of questioning their teachings in the light of the Bible , questions that might lead many a JW to true freedom!

You might delight in putting yourself on the victorious chair with your words , but Grunbaum people read and form conclusions on the way you answer and behave here!  

I have interacted with many JW including to name big WT apologist such as Greg Stafford , Martin Smart and Apologist on the internet for years  and just where are they today ? They are no longer JW with Apologist the latest to have left and recently broke his silence after seven years at http://www.topix.com/ telling us that the WTS latest change re the Faithful and the discreet slave was the nail that sealed the coffin and believe you me , many are going to leave the borg about the latest change re the FDS!Bear in mind they were just as convinced as you were , far better apologist then you can ever be, but starting reading their Bibles on their own lead then to see the WT is in error!

I am quite baffled that you quite Ps 110: and 1 Cor 15 : 25 and Acts 2: 33 -34

All these verses deal with what was fulfilled in their lifetime!It is no brainer and anyone can read those verses and understand it just that way even with half their brain .        

JW rewrite 1 Cor 15: 25


HE MUST RULE AS KING

to

HE MUST START TO RULE AS KING AFTER THE GENTILE TIMES EXPIRED IN 1914

Yet Paul was writing in the Present tense : HE MUST RULE AS KING!!!

All these verses you show shares how the Holy Spirit communicated through the Apostles the promise to seat one on Davids descendands on his throne which was fullfiled by the resurrection and exaltation  of the Lord Jesus to the right  hand of His Father!

Rev 12 is not talking about 1914 either , Rev 12 is a fillfulment of Jesus words that cause of his death Satan will be cast to heaven Jn 12: 30 - 31

JW have actually replaced Jesus victory on Golgota with that of a different kind of Good news that of a war that happened in 1914 being the establishment of a Kingdom in the heavens,

JW will have you believe that Jesus death on the cross was not good enough to triumph over Satan , no he still had to fight it out in heaven in 1914 yet in Jesus own words as explained by John


Now is the judgment of the world and shall the prince be cast out .And when Ill be lifted up(going to heaven) will draw all sorts of men to me! This he said signifying what death he should die. Jn 12 : 30 33

Simple reading from the text Jesus is telling us that as a result of his death Satan will be cast out and people will be drawn to JESUS !          

Jesus victory was on the cross at Golgota Grunbaum

When He had DISARMED the RULERS and AUTHORITIES and put them to open shame /he made a display of them having triumphed over them by the cross ! Col 2: 15  

Just five verses earlier Paul tell us Jesus is

..the head over every authority and power Col 2: 10   


Yet according to your leaders the Kingdoms of the world BECAME the Kingdom of God and His Christ !

Shall I type one more time

THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD BECAME THE KINGDOM OF THE LORD AND HIS MESSIAH   ...

And you say with your excellent reply

..But did that mean the kingdom began ruling on the earth

You see Grunbaum this is actually why I chose you and why I love the net thang! It shows folks how JW reply to questions like these sometimes never thinking what they are saying all for the sake of defending the borg !

What you are actually saying is that the Bible says the Father and Son has a Kingdom that BECAME theirs yet they dont rule OVER what is theirs !

And dont forget according to JW who defend the NWT to death that while some translations say

You have made them to be a kingdom of priest ON/EPI the earth the NWT says rule OVER'/EPI the earth  (Rev 5: 10) arguing that it really does not make a difference at all since OVER/EPI or ON/EPI  does not change anything since it mean the same thing !          

So Grunbaum if the Kingdoms of the world became Jesus in 1914 then who really rules the world   ?
Answer: I dont know why you had these remarks private perhaps and oversight but I changed it,let me close by just this saying this Johan,I have something that all the ones you mentioned didn't and Ill just leave you with that.


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Prince/prophet Grünbaum

Jehovah`s Witness

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