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Jehovah`s Witness/Its Just Getting Worse for you, DW...

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Question
Some people never learn, and it appears that DW is one of those people.  The manner in which he tried to twist my latest writing to him, only shows how frustrated he is getting, and how desperate he is to create a diversion.  Hopefully, this will be the last spanking he needs...But I'm not optimisitic.

Answer
Well, I truly regret that my attempts to address DW and appeal to him to tell the truth, has only resulted in him lying even more.  It is becoming more and more obvious, that he is a frustrated man, because he is used to speaking and not being questioned, and now he has found his own lies turned back on him.  

He made false accusations against me in a previous post, and when he was called on it, he then claimed he didn’t state them as fact…only an opinion.  This was clearly shown from his own statements to be a lie, and it was shown that he DID state them as fact.  So rather than retract, he lashes out and throws around more insults.  How childish.

He was asked to show us a “list” of my lies which he has been claiming that he HAS, but then he says he isn’t going to go back through the archives to find them.  The fact is, he has no list of lies.  

But then, after being asked to provide a quote from me that says Jehovahs Witnesses don’t have a verse to “point to”, to show that Jesus is Michael, he does just that….goes back through the archives, to find a quote from NINE years ago.  And he doesn’t want to go back through archives?  Seriously, Man.  

But the most regrettable part, is that DW flat out lied again, by claiming that “So again you admit you lie!!”

This is like his earlier false accusation that I “admit” using satanic tactics.  Never admitted that, and never admitted lying.  He proves himself a liar when he makes statements such as this.

Anyone who read my question TO DW, saw clearly that I said JWs have no Scriptures that SAY or TEACH that Jesus is Michael.  I told him clearly that I did not recall ever saying that they had no Scriptures that they “point to”, but that if I HAD said this, he could provide the quote and I would discuss it.  That is about as honest and fair as I can be.  So, he completely ignored that I told him he could give me the quote if he had one, and he completely ignored the fact that I said I didn’t RECALL ever using that exact wording.  So, he goes back NINE years to dig up a quote, and then has the gall to call me a “liar” over it, even though I didn’t say for sure that I had never used that wording, but only that I didn’t RECALL using it.  I clearly told him that if he had a quote, he was welcome to post it, and I would respond.

That is a man who is VERY desperate indeed….To call someone a “liar”, for saying they don’t RECALL using a certain phrase, but asking you to remind them by posting it, if they did.

It seems DW’s definition of “lying” has changed overnight…LOL.  And he says MY views and beliefs change?

Well DW, I personally find it hilarious and ridiculous, that you have to dig up something from NINE YEARS ago to prove a “lie”, when it is no lie, and then you claim you have a so-called list of lies, and that I “lie all the time”.  You are such a laughing stock, and I know that deep down, you must really feel ridiculous.  I don’t have to look back months ago for a lie from you…I can find several in MOST everything you post.  

But here’s the thing….Although you did find a quote from me where I used the term “point to”, as I expected, you quoted it OUT OF CONTEXT, and left OUT key parts which validated MY statement, and disprove yours.  That is because you are talking about the phrase “point to”, in regards to a Scripture which JWs think supports the teaching, but in the answer you quoted, I used the phrase “point to” in regards to them having a Scripture which SAYS Jesus is Michael.

I will show this now, by quoting the parts of my answer from 2003, which you did NOT mention.  I guess you figured if you went far enough back, that maybe I wouldn’t know which answer you were quoting, and couldn’t refute it.  Is THAT the reason you didn’t give the link, DW?  That would be my guess.

Anyway, here is the part that DW quoted….

DW WROTE:  “Here's one of your statement's right here

<<<<< I will say that I have seen and read their so-called "evidence" for Jesus being Michael. Needless to say, there is NO SCRIPTURE that they can point to.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So you just told another lie”


REPLY:  It amazes me he can be so “thick” as to call that a lie, when I welcomed him to post the quote so that we could discuss it, and merely said I didn’t remember making it.  I wonder how many other experts remember everything they said 9 years ago.

However, we see again that DW is twisting and manipulating, in order to slander, like DW typically does.

He quoted this part:  “I will say that I have seen and read their so-called "evidence" for Jesus being Michael. Needless to say, there is NO SCRIPTURE that they can point to.”


But HERE’S the rest of it, that he LEFT OUT, from the SAME writing….

““I will say that I have seen and read their so-called "evidence" for Jesus being Michael. Needless to say, there is NO SCRIPTURE that they can point to. Instead, they use alot of presumption and tortured reasoning to arrive at their conclusions. They will use primarily the Scripture in 1 Thess. 4:16, where it says.…”


Now, that’s funny…DW is trying to give a false impression, so that the reader will think I was saying that they have no Scriptures they “point to”, to show their Jesus/Michael doctrine.  But if we read the ENTIRE paragraph, we see that I even gave one of the Scriptures THEY try to use.  So, he is being intentionally deceptive.

So, it is exactly as I said previously….I HAVE said they have no Scripture they can “point to” that SAYS Jesus is Michael, although they have some they “point to”, that they try to USE to support the belief.  

But that’s not all.  There is still MORE in that same answer, that DW left out, which changes the picture completely.  No wonder he left it out.  

In the same answer, I wrote….

““I believe any sane person can see the shallow nature of the Watchtower reasoning. The fact is: THEY DO NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT THEY CAN POINT TO, SAYING CLEARLY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MICHAEL.”

“The reason you can find nothing in the Bible to substantiate their beliefs, is because it isn't there! And yes, they do take Scripture out of context. But on this particular subject, even they have a difficult time locating Scriptures to take out of context. The reasonings I listed above, are about the best arguments that they have.”

END QUOTE*******************


Well, that sure changes things, doesn’t it DW?  Yes, I used the phrase “point to”, in an answer 9 years ago.  I also said that the Scriptures they “point to”, don’t SAY that Jesus is Michael.  And that is EXACTLY the point I made in my comments to you yesterday…that yes, you guys have Scriptures that you try and MAKE teach it, and Scriptures you THINK hint at it, but you have NO Scripture that you can “point to”, that actually SAYS IT.

And in the 2nd paragraph in the above quote, I clearly stated that they DO “take Scriptures out of context”, which is an indicator that the Jehovah’s Witnesses ARE attempting to “point to” Scriptures, what few they can…they are simply misusing and misapplying those Scriptures.  

So, my statement THEN was EXACTLY as I stated yesterday….While you guys may try and USE certain Scriptures, I made the point that you have NONE that actually SAY or TEACH that Jesus is Michael.

And you don’t!

So, why did you try and deceive the readers once again?  Did you really think I was gonna let you get away with that?  My answer that you selectively quoted, actually validated MY point, not yours.


But DW, you did something even more sinister.  You CHANGED a word.  Don’t change words in my quotes, DW.  I will call you out and make you a liar, if you do.  Notice what the shifty snake-oil salesman tried to do next…

MY QUOTE:  “What I HAVE said, is that they have no Scriptures that SAY or TEACH that Jesus is Michael.”

DW’S COMMENT ON MY QUOTE:  “You admit you have said we have no scriptures that SUPPORT or TEACH Jesus being Michael.That is a blatant lie!!!”


REPLY:  Can’t you read, DW?  The “blatant lie” here, is the way you change a word in my quote from “SAY”, to “SUPPORT”.  

I suspect you did that, in order to avoid the fact that YOU know there is NO Scripture that SAYS Jesus is Michael the Archangel.  

Now, I DID made a comment such as this, in that answer in 2003, when I stated…

“There is NO SCRIPTURE that these people can give you in support of their view. NONE! Keep pressing the JW on this issue. The article the JWs will give you in support of their position uses alot of words like "evidently, logically, probable, etc." In other words, THERE IS NO CONCRETE PROOF!!”

But again, when placed in context, this paragraph makes the same point I have always made…there is NO Scripture that REALLY DOES support your view.  Scriptures that YOU may misinterpret to support it, but none that really do, and certain none that SAY it.

But the portion of my quote that you altered, did not even use the word “support”.  The word “support” was used in the NEXT paragraph, not the one that you presumed to misquote.  Don’t alter my quotes, DW.  


So yes, apparently 9 years ago, I used the phrase “point to”, and DW considers that a lie, even though I did not say for certain that I never used that phrase…only that I didn’t recall wording it like that.

Pal, if THAT is the best “lie” you can come up with, then I’m doing pretty good.

So, let me be quite clear at this point in time…..

Jehovah’s Witnesses have an erroneous belief that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel.  They have Scriptures, just like most every cult has Scriptures that they “point to”, that they THINK supports the doctrine.  But they have NO Scripture that they can “point to”, that SAYS Jesus is Michael, and they have no Scripture they can “point to” that actually TEACHES this erroneous doctrine.

Now, if you think that’s a “lie”, then we can make that our next topic of debate after you “maul” me on the resurrection of Christ.  You can give your best shot of proving my comment a “lie”.

A lesson for you, DW….A statement is not a “lie”, just because YOU don’t agree with it.  Just because YOU think the Scriptures support the doctrine of Jesus being Michael, does not mean they DO support it, nor is it a lie when I say they don’t, if indeed they don’t.  What you believe has NOTHING to do with it.


DW writes….”You are supposed to be on here representing our beliefs and have studied us extensively yet you tell people we can't support or teach that Jesus is Michael from scripture. So you admit you lie here!!! So then people go away and may never visit this site or speak to a witness again and they go away thinking we pluck Michael out of thin air.

Do you think that's fair on people who want an objective viewpoint?? Do you think that's fair on people who are in a search for God??”


REPLY:  Look, you of all people don’t need to be talking to me about “fair” and “objective”.  I am FAR more fair and honest in my representation of your belief, than you are when someone asks you about mine.  You have made some of the stupidest comments on the Trinity doctrine, that are surpassed only by Rando.  When I am asked about your belief on Michael the Archangel, I ACCURATELY state the belief, and WHY you believe it.  I also state why I believe the belief is wrong.  

You will NOT twist that into me “admitting I lied”.  I admit no such thing.  I don’t lie, and I do not appreciate your “satanic attack” of a comment, claiming I have no morals.  I will place my morals alongside yours, ANY DAY, DW.  Any day, any time, any where.  

In the future, you can refrain from speaking of a subject you know nothing about.  You have never seen me, you know nothing about me, and you SURE know nothing about my moral standards.  You are a complete joke, when you make comments such as that.

So NO, I did not “admit to a lie”…You lied by taking my comments from 2003 out of context, and leaving out the parts that clarified the quote you used.

Guess you learned that from reading the WT, and how THEY quote people, huh?

And you talk about "a search for God"?  Man, it is the CHRISTIANS on this board who point people to God, the WAY that GOD provided for them to come...THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.  I am YET to see any JW on here tell someone to come to Christ for their salvation, which is precisely what the BIBLE teaches is necessary.  No, you instead point them to an Organization and tell them they must be part of it, which the Bible NOWHERE says one word about.  Don't tell me about people "searching for God".  You are the ones pointing them in the wrong direction.



Now, on to your next bit on nonsense, regarding whether you guys can point SCRIPTURALLY to 1914….

YOU:  “Again your second point shows the same.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< So, I will say “Yes” to that one…I have made that statement.

Now again, I will say that I know you guys have Scriptures you “point to”, to arrive at this view. But you do NOT have a solid Scriptural foundation, with Scriptures that actually TEACH it.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So again you admit you lie!!”


REPLY:  I would love to see you explain how that is admitting a lie.  For that to be a lie, you would have to SHOW that you DO have a Scripture, pointing to 1914, which actually does TEACH it.  Do you have one?

Oh wait, you actually tried to list one that proves 1914.  Let’s see it now…


YOU:  “Because we do have solid scriptural foundation here's just one scripture here

Matt 24:

7 "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom"


REPLY:  Uhm, okay…Is that it?  That’s your Scripture which proves 1914?  

Wow…I must be missing something here.  Perhaps you can show us HOW this Scripture supports 1914?  I mean, its right there!  Anybody picking up a Bible and reading this verse, would immediately see it and say…”Wow, that’s awesome how the Bible is talking about the year 1914!!”.

Good grief, DW.  And THAT is your basis for saying my statement is a lie?


DW:  “So you admit to telling lies on this forum.To be on this forum and make statements like that shows a deliberate intent to deceive.It would be a different situation if you where talking to a friend. But you're actually on a Jehovah's witness forum as an expert in a religion you've studied extensively and your making false statements with the intent to deceive.”


REPLY:  No, you failed completely to prove this statement was a lie in any way, shape, or form.  To prove a lie, or an intent to deceive, you FIRST have to SHOW that there IS a Scripture that:

1.  SAYS Jesus is Michael the Archangel
2.  SAYS that Jesus “came” in 1914

You did neither.

That was one of your weakest attempts to pain me a “liar”, to date, DW.


DW:  “That's why you shouldn't be here!! Morally it's wrong but you have no morals, which is why you have no issue with telling these lies.”

REPLY:  I believe we have seen who “has no issue with telling lies”.  It’s the guy who keeps getting nailed for his lies nearly every day.  And that would be YOU…

And again, your cheap “satanic character attack” only shows your own hypocrisy.  You falsely claim that I am the one using “satanic attacks”….When have I ever said you have no morals, or made false statements about your personal life?  What hypocrisy for you to claim that, and then say that I have no morals.

Again, I’ll gladly put my morals alongside yours any day of the week.

You know what?  I think that is another statement of yours, which is a “deliberate attempt to deceive”.  In fact, when JWs claim in their post that they are morally superior to other Christians, that is another example of trying to deceive by giving a false impression, through slander of other people’s morals.

Just more of the JW “satanic character attacks” that you have become so famous for.



DW:  “It would be the same as me being on a forum for trinitarians and someone saying to me "DW why do people believe in the trinity and I say I don't know,there's no scripture to support it"

That would be a lie because I do know why they believe it. I know what scriptures they use to try and support it, but my statement is misleading and therefore a lie.”


REPLY:  Really, DW?  So DO you acknowledge that there are Scriptures which SUPPORT the Trinity teaching?  Or do you merely acknowledge there are Scriptures which we “point to” in support of it?  Do you believe that those Scriptures REALLY DO support it?

I believe you just contradicted everything you have been rambling on about, and showed your ignorance in the process, because your second statement completely contradicted your first one.  You call me “thick”?  Do YOU not understand the difference between TRYING TO SUPPORT IT with Scriptures, and the Scriptures ACTUALLY SUPPORTING it?

You’re incredible.


DW:  “This admission tells the readers five things

1)You admit to lies”

REPLY:  A lie on your part.  I never admitted to lying, and you still never showed any.


DW:  “2)You are a hypocrite”

REPLY:  And this is from the guy who cries about “satanic attacks”, and then calls me a liar without proving one, and says I “have no morals”.  And who also re-defines the word “lie” whenever it suits his convenience.  

And not to mention, you are also the guy who said I write to myself pretending to be someone else, and go on vacation to get away from the board, and when called out, says “I was only giving it as an opinion”, when your comments clearly showed you stated it as FACT.

This is also from a guy who told the readers of this forum that I write you in PRIVATE "behind the scenes" to "cause trouble", and when I demand you to post the so-called PRIVATE trouble-making writings from you, you post an example a PUBLIC writing which you REJECTED, and which I had already told the board that I had written, 5 days prior to your mentioning it.

And you NEVER retracted your false comment about my writing you "in private behind the scenes to cause trouble".  You lied, and you gladly let the lie stand without ever correcting it.

Yeah, I see what you mean about being a hypocrite.


DW:  “3)You shouldn't be here”

REPLY:  I should be here more than you, because I am honest, and document what I say.  You don’t…You claim you don’t want to search the archives to back up your own false accusation.  I give far more honest answers here than you do

DW:  “4)You're only here to deceive”

REPLY:  Nope, I’m here to keep people like YOU from deceiving.  I shudder to think what would happen if there weren’t honest Christians here.  You would sanitize everything about your history, and honest questioners would NEVER know anything that you didn’t want them to, or anything that paints the Society in their true light.


DW:  “5)You use Satanic tactics”

REPLY:  See point #2 above.  DW, do you realize that you say the same stuff every time?  You are so predictable.  

Don’t you have ANY real lies to show?  What about that “list” that you said you have?  Where is it?


DW:  “As for the rest of your letter no idea what it said I didn't read it there's no need you've been thoroughly exposed for what you are.”

REPLY:  Oh, I think you did.  And I think you got so upset when you read it, that is why you are lashing out and pouting like a small child.  You get more and more angry with each post that exposes your falsehoods, and your weird and illogical reasoning.  And believe me, it shows.

Listen, blame yourself.  You came here all big and bad, and thought you were going to boss everyone around.  Well, you aren’t.  The quicker you learn you aren’t going to attempt to slander my name without looking foolish, the happier your life here will be.  

Whenever you learn, this will end.  Until then, you will only keep getting exposed.  Your choice.  

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Derrick Holland

Expertise

I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

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29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

Organizations
I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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