You are here:

Jehovah`s Witness/Why you and the KJB are hiding the truth?

Advertisement


Question
Mr. Holland,

You said:

>>Oh by the way, no takers on that million-dollar offer?  All you had to do was to provide the statement where I said Herod was a Christian, since this is what was claimed that I said.  Real easy...why didn't you show it?<<

--> like you said, Herod is Pagan, never was a Christian. If Bro. Rando said otherwise, that he's a "Christian" according to you then he's mistaken.

As for this:

>>if you have some real proof that I have lied, or the King James Bible is in error,..?<<

Of course I do! But the word I used was HIDE as in hiding the truth (about Easter) through manipulation of words and circumstances.

Here's what I said:

'You manipulated (knowingly or unknowingly) the event in order to introduce a NON-EXISTENT situation which you call "a REAL problem".'

that is:

>>... Passover was ALREADY OVER, and Easter was but a few days away. "<<

In other words what you said is this - there were THREE celebrations that went on at Acts 12:1-4:

Namely:

1) The "passover" (Nisan 14).

2) The "days of the unfermented cake" (Nisan 15-21)

then

3) The Pagan EASTER celebration of Herod.

From which I had to asked myself. Why the deception, why introduce something that isn't there – a “REAL problem”.

Why say: "Easter was but a few days away" if the verse doesn't even say it?

Fact is there is NO REAL PROBLEM with the original verse and its meaning.

What the verse simply saying (if you are honest about it) is that Herod doesn't want to release Peter until the Jews finished their PASSOVER and festival.

That is:

((Acts 12:1-5) . . .About that particular time Herod the king applied his hands to mistreating some of those of the congregation. 2 He did away with James the brother of John by the sword. 3 As he saw it was pleasing to the Jews, he went on to arrest Peter also. (As it was, those were days of the unfermented cakes.) 4 And laying hold of him, he put him in prison, turning him over to four shifts of four soldiers each to guard him, as he intended to produce him for the people after the passover. 5 Consequently Peter was being kept in the prison; but prayer to God for him was being carried on intensely by the congregation.


No more no less.

To say otherwise is - like I said - injecting an idea that isn't there!


And that's exactly what you did because you can't admit that the KJB made an error in translating the Greek word "Pascha" into “Easter”. Thus you're stuck defending the indefensible and will continue to hide the truth.

So to recap.

In order to make the KJB rendering correct, what you've basically admitted to is this.

There were THREE celebrations that went on at Acts 12:1-4.

Namely:

1) The "passover" (Nisan 14).
2) The "days of the unfermented cake" (Nisan 15-21)

Which are obviously true and

3) The Pagan holiday EASTER celebration of Herod.

Which is obviously NOT true or if you want to call it – a lie.

Here's my scriptural support using your own KJB of 1 and 2:

“Eze 45:21 KJV - In the first [month], in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.”


Exd 12:18 KJV - “In the first [month], on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.”


Lev 23:6 KJV - “And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.”


Now, what's your Scriptural support other the KJB *mistranslation of Acts 12:4, and your own unfounded ideas that “Pascha” refers to Herod's “OWN celebration” of the Pagan Easter?


In other words, can you present a SOLID, incontrovertible scriptural evidence that “Pascha” refers to - without ANY doubt - Herod's “OWN celebration” of the Pagan Easter?


And if indeed, as you claim that “Pascha” refers to Herod's OWN pagan celebration, explain please how could the Jews participate or even be present at such Pagan holiday without violating their own laws?

After all they've just finished celebrating their own sacred days.

And is Peter that important to the Jews that they are willing to profane themselves by attending Herod's Pagan holiday in order to as you say:

>>“...execute him during his OWN celebration!”<<???


Really, are you telling us that the Jews are so dumb and gullible that Herod is able to persuade them to attend and witness an execution during a Pagan holiday of Easter?


Who are you kidding?


Well I hope this is clear enough if not let me know and I'll simplify it further.


I'll stop here and address the Tyndale article next time.


BTW, *The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible says on page 145 about Easter:


“Easter. Originally the spring festival in honor of the Teutonic goddess of light and spring known in Anglo-Saxon as Eastre. As early as the 8th century the name was transferred by the Anglo-Saxons to the Christian festival designed to celebrate the resurrection of Christ. In A.V. [Authorized Version] it occurs once (Acts 12:4), but is a mistranslation.”

Answer
Okay as promised, I am sending you this reply, with just an observation or two.

First off, you seem to be a nervy fellow, in that not only do you accuse me of lying, but now you have presumed to accuse the BIBLE of lying too, in the title of your question.  Man, you got a dangerous combination of a lot of guts, and not a lot of brains.

First, let me comment on a few of your statements....

YOU:  "like you said, Herod is Pagan, never was a Christian. If Bro. Rando said otherwise, that he's a "Christian" according to you then he's mistaken."

ME:  Uh no, he isn't "mistaken"...he is lying.  There is a difference, that perhaps you don't understand.  When a person is mistaken, they are happy to apologize and retract their "mistake", and admit they were wrong.  When a person is lying, they will lash back at you when you point out their "mistake", and refuse to make it right.  They will misquote and twist your words continually, because they cannot actually refute what you DID say.

That's how you know the difference.  But hey, I'm glad to see you admit that Rando is not stating the truth, and that even YOU know that I did not say Herod was a Christian.  Now, since you have done that, and since you are so intent on correcting people whom you think print falsehoods, then write to Rando and tell him he should retract his false statement when he claims I said something that ridiculous, that "Herod is a Christian".  

Let's see if you're REALLY interested in truth, or not.  


YOU:  "Of course I do! But the word I used was HIDE as in hiding the truth (about Easter) through manipulation of words and circumstances.

Here's what I said:

'You manipulated (knowingly or unknowingly) the event in order to introduce a NON-EXISTENT situation which you call "a REAL problem"."


ME:  Sorry Sir, but I don't take kindly to being accused of being a liar.  And if you are going to do it, I am going to pressure you to prove it with AN ACTUAL lie.  You should have read enough of this board by now, to know that I will do that.  You simply posting your OPINION of what you THINK I was doing, does not constitute a "lie".  You have produced no evidence at all of any manipulation.  And its funny...You said "knowingly or unknowingly".  You just contradicted yourself.  If there is the possibility that it was "unknowingly", then it isn't a lie.  A lie is an outright statement that is known to be false, or an attempt to deceive.  

But that is a moot point...There was no manipulation.  The manipulation is trying to make "Passover" fit the context of this verse, when it does not.  


YOU:  "In other words what you said is this - there were THREE celebrations that went on at Acts 12:1-4:

Namely:

1) The "passover" (Nisan 14).

2) The "days of the unfermented cake" (Nisan 15-21)

then

3) The Pagan EASTER celebration of Herod.

From which I had to asked myself. Why the deception, why introduce something that isn't there – a “REAL problem”.

Why say: "Easter was but a few days away" if the verse doesn't even say it?"


ME:  Didn't introduce a thing that wasn't there.  We know from Scripture that the days of unleavened bread, began on the Passover, and continued for the next week.  So that takes care of 2 of them, right there.  As for Easter, there is a reason that earlier Bibles used the word "Easter" here, instead of Passover.  It isn't because they wanted to introduce a pagan festival into the Church...it is because the context is talking about a Pagan.

You seem to forget....Herod would have had no problem executing Peter during Passover.  You people seem to think that Herod was respectful of the Jewish celebration, or something, and wouldn't dream of doing such a thing.  Herod was a pagan, and Easter was a pagan celebration that Herod was honoring.

But the real kicker, is the point you keep AVOIDING like the plague.  And that is the point I have to keep reminding you of about Tyndale.  You claim you will "address the Tyndale article next time".  There's nothing to address....The man invented the word "Passover", which you cannot deny is a fact.  Yet, when he came to this verse, he recognized it was not referring to the Jewish Passover.  So, he didn't use the word he invented, because he understood the context.

So no, there is no reason to admit or even believe that the KJB made a mistake here....The man who invented the word Passover, didn't use it himself.  And now, you have the modern day "textual critics", along with the 5 unqualified members of the NWT translation "committee", who think they know more about the proper use of "Passover" than the guy who invented the word and chose NOT to use it here.

What is there for you to address?  All you can do is try and speculate, and give your opinion as to why Tyndale didn't use it.  But the evidence is clear, from the context of the verse itself...He didn't use it, because it wasn't talking about the Jewish Passover.  That had already passed.



YOU:  "In other words, can you present a SOLID, incontrovertible scriptural evidence that “Pascha” refers to - without ANY doubt - Herod's “OWN celebration” of the Pagan Easter?"

ME:  I already have...There is no doubt in my mind at all.  The context bears it out, because Passover was already over, and can be ruled out.

If you are asking if I can make YOU believe it, then no.  Nor am I trying to.  But my doubts are resolved.  The context clearly shows that Passover was over, and therefore, does not fit into the explanation.  Secondly, the man who invented the word "Passover" also understood that this was not referring to the Jewish celebration, and therefore, translated it "Easter" accordingly.  

That is much more solid than anything you have said, up to this point.


Now, your next statement is beyond ridiculous, as it shows how you think your SPECULATION is supposed to impress me, as would a real FACT.  


YOU:  "And if indeed, as you claim that “Pascha” refers to Herod's OWN pagan celebration, explain please how could the Jews participate or even be present at such Pagan holiday without violating their own laws?

After all they've just finished celebrating their own sacred days.

And is Peter that important to the Jews that they are willing to profane themselves by attending Herod's Pagan holiday in order to as you say:

>>“...execute him during his OWN celebration!”<<???


Really, are you telling us that the Jews are so dumb and gullible that Herod is able to persuade them to attend and witness an execution during a Pagan holiday of Easter?


Who are you kidding?"


ME:  Is this suppose to be a serious question, written with a straight face?  I had to read this again, to make sure I even read it right.  Did you REALLY write...

""And if indeed, as you claim that “Pascha” refers to Herod's OWN pagan celebration, explain please how could the Jews participate or even be present at such Pagan holiday without violating their own laws?"


2 things to that...First, nobody said the Jews PARTICIPATED in the celebration.  As for "breaking their own laws", are you kidding me?  Are you referring to the same Jewish people who had been guilty in their history, of sacrificing their children to Molech?  Are you referring to the same Jewish people who had "laws" against murder, but we are PLAINLY told they were "pleased" when Herod did it?

Didn't you read verse 1 of this chapter, Ed?  You might should.

Also, you might be profited by a study of the ILLEGAL nature of the trial of Jesus Christ, and how many of their own "laws" they broke during it, by bringing in FALSE WITNESSES (Exoduse 20:16).  Do you know how many of their "own laws" they broke, when it served their purpose to get Jesus "out of the way"?  

So, your premise is, that the correct translation here MUST be "Passover", even though it doesn't fit, because the Jews would not break their "own laws"?

You asked me...."Who are you kidding?"

No, the question is...Who are YOU kidding?  


YOU:  "BTW, *The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible says on page 145 about Easter:


“Easter. Originally the spring festival in honor of the Teutonic goddess of light and spring known in Anglo-Saxon as Eastre. As early as the 8th century the name was transferred by the Anglo-Saxons to the Christian festival designed to celebrate the resurrection of Christ. In A.V. [Authorized Version] it occurs once (Acts 12:4), but is a mistranslation.”


ME:  Well CONGRATULATIONS...(clap, clap, whistle!!)  You have shown an amazing talent to find information on the internet, that says something against the King James Bible.

But you know why that is completely worthless?  Providing a quote like that, I mean?  Because I can just as easily go on the internet, and find statements showing what a poor and sorry translation the NWT is also.  In addition, for every link you post about why "Easter" is not correct, I can go and find a link showing that it is.

So, we can do the back and forth with links all day.  You are going to quote the sources that say what you want, and I will quote the ones that shoot holes in yours.  That is not a problem in the slightest bit.

For instance, just do a Google search with the words "Refuting the New World Translation", and see what you come up with.

So if you think I am impressed because you found a comment that says the KJB is "mistranslated", you are quite mistaken.  You are not going to tell me anything I haven't heard a hundred times before, I can promise you that.  

Because see, here's the problem...If you want to take the position that NO Bible is perfect, then you have some major questions to answer.  And that is the position you are left with, when you try and go finding fault with the KJB.  Because I am just going to ask you which Bible YOU believe is preserved without error.  

I honestly get a laugh out of you people, who spend all your time trying to pick apart the King James Bible, not realizing that you are merely proving that the King James Bible is the one that ALL others try to compare themselves to.  Not against each other, but against the King James.  Why is it that it is the one that you try and compare the others against, anyway?  

Trying to tear down the King James Bible?  You would do better trying to smash an anvil with a fly-swatter.

Also, perhaps you would like to discuss the men behind the translations, and the texts used in their work?  Do you really want to discuss Westcott and Hort?  I wouldn't.  Its amusing to hear the JWs blast the Catholic church, and then walk around carrying a "bible" translated by men who believed in Mariolatry, and also denied the historical accuracy of the first 3 chapters of Genesis.

Seriously, Man...You're gonna have to do better than that.

So if you want to write again, here is the deal...We can have a discussion.  But I'm tiring of the accusations of "lying".  I don't lie.  If your next writing contains another false accusation of this sort, I will reject it.  I would much rather discuss, than argue, or sling accusations around.  And I want more than your OPINION.

Thank you, and have a nice day.  

Jehovah`s Witness

All Answers


Answers by Expert:


Ask Experts

Volunteer


Derrick Holland

Expertise

I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

Organizations
I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

©2016 About.com. All rights reserved.