Jehovah`s Witness/Michael- Are you sure?

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QUESTION: Hello DW; As I was reading I stumbled across your explanation of Jesus being Michael to one of the questioners. Although your answer was quite detailed and "seemingly" scriptural there are some things I would like to bring to your attention, and others that need correction or clarification:

You stated: "Right from the start according to the scriptures you have two choices."

1# Jesus is God

2# Jesus is an angel

The scriptures no where call for a choice of this sort; it calls for you to identify Jesus, and teaches that Jesus is the Son of God.


Example: When Jesus was talking with the disciples, did he ask him was he an Angel? What was he asking them and what was Peters reply? That Jesus was an Angel#Spirit being, Messenger#?: No let us look at what the scripture says his answer was:

Matthew 16

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

So Peters answer was that Jesus was the "Anointed One" #Christ# and the "Son" of God.

To this, Jesus replied:
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

To make a choice of if Jesus is an Angel or God himself is not a matter of scripture, but of Theology and Theosophy. The scriptures are clear on who he is.

2. You use Job 38:7 prove Jesus is an Angel. Well The Sons of God were the Angels in the Old Testament and yes they were called morning stars. Jesus in his Heavenly dwelling place is a Spirit Creature, He is his Fathers Messenger etc etc. But you would only be partially correct in your statement. I will explain later.

You stated: "In his own words Jesus tells us he's an angel. He say's he's a morning star and a morning star is an angel."

Before I continue...Jesus was not speaking in Job 38:7. Now as for Rev. 22 where you say he is attesting to being an Angel, this is where you are incorrect. This is not what is being said and the way you use it is more a play on the words:

"I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star"

What Jesus is stating in this passage of scripture is in relation to the following:


John 1:3-5

King James Version #KJV#


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


John 1:6-8

King James Version #KJV#


6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

Jesus was speaking of being the "Illumination of the Truth" to all mankind! Not of being an angel.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


John 8:12

King James Version #KJV#

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
His words spoke to the fact that he is prophecy fulfilled.

You:
Col 1:

15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"

God is not born nor is God of creation. But Jesus/Michael is.

Archangel means chief of the angels or chief of the messengers.

All of the above I agree with; however your statement below is inaccurate:


"That's why Jesus was called the word in the beginning."

The Greek word "Logos" means "spoken word" "primary reason" " the cause" I has nothing to do with being an Archangel..and you do know there are more than 1 Archangel do you not? But anyway...

Dan: 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

John 1:1 speaks to Jesus as the spoken word, the reason, cause and grounds for things:

Jesus was created, or brought forth from the Spirit of God Himself...God Spoke and Jesus came to be, was brought forth, he was with God, Towards God, and he was of Divine Essence. God dwells IN HIM...hence he is the Image of the Invisible God...it is HE that the Angels have seen! All Other things, Angels including Michael, were created "By Him, For Him, Through Him"!

Another way JWS try and prove Jesus is Michael is by the name itself..Michael; for its meaning is "Who is like God?"; but Notice its meaning is actually a question. The Answer would be no one or nothing! Michael is part of one of the Highest Orders of Angels.

Witnesses also believe Jesus or Michael is Apollyon and Abaddon do they not?

I await your response


Rev. Darryl Murphy

ANSWER: Hello again Darryl

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<The scriptures no where call for a choice of this sort; it calls for you to identify Jesus, and teaches that Jesus is the Son of God.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well I'm afraid you do only have the two choices if you want to Biblically interpret who Jesus is. The key word is BIBLICALLY!! Right from the start according to the BIBLE there was only ever God and the Angels in heaven. So according to the scriptures themselves you have two choices.

Angels are all sons of God as we see in Job

38:7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together And all the sons of God began shouting in applause"

So of course Jesus would be the son of God he was the firstborn one so before you even begin that's the case.

So according to the BIBLE you still only have 2 choices.

1)Jesus is God

2)Jesus is an angel

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Before I continue...Jesus was not speaking in Job 38:7. Now as for Rev. 22 where you say he is attesting to being an Angel, this is where you are incorrect. This is not what is being said and the way you use it is more a play on the words>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Again the way you BIBLICALLY interpret what a bright morning star is. Is again by using the Bible.

BIBLICALLY a bright morning star is an Angel, nothing else!!. It makes no difference what you think a bright morning star is. The Bible say's it's an Angel so that's what one is.

Being the bright morning star he did bear witness to the light because the bright morning star is the chief witness bearer

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<The Greek word "Logos" means "spoken word" "primary reason" " the cause" I has nothing to do with being an Archangel..and you do know there are more than 1 Archangel do you not?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

No idea what your talking about here.

Firstly I said he was the word because he's God's chief messenger. Nothing you say here shows any different to that and I have no idea why you think it has?? He was the one in charge of speaking for God your answer backs up what I said in the first place.

Secondly the BIBLE say's there's only one Archangel due to the fact it's only used in the singular. So again we go with what the Bible say's and not what you say.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Another way JWS try and prove Jesus is Michael is by the name itself..Michael; for its meaning is "Who is like God?"; but Notice its meaning is actually a question. The Answer would be no one or nothing! Michael is part of one of the Highest Orders of Angels>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Again no idea what you're trying to argue here. Of course the answers no one. That's the entire point of the argument.

Look Darryl I'm not gonna keep wasting my time with you like I did last time. You can't keep writing me letters ignore Bible interpretations and telling me that the Bible has some new mystical meaning for words like "morning star" that no one else has ever heard of.

There's really no need to follow up

Take Care


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hello DW: I think somewhere along the line you missed what was being said:

1.If you really understood the Angelic Order in the Bible, you would understand there are more than 1 Chief or Archangel...I know it is hard for you to swallow because that fact alone nullifies your arguments.

2.You said Jesus was called the word in the beginning because he was Gods Chief messenger..However this is not the reason. That is what was explained too you about John 1.

3. I'm not giving you what I think things mean...I'm giving you what the Bible says they mean. Did you know that even Satan was called the Bright and Morning Star? These are things you need to be aware of when making such interpretations. Jesus himself in Latin Scriptures is referred too as Lucifer..which simply means "Light Bearer" or "Illuminated One" but we both know Satan was not Gods Chief messenger...He was however part of A higher Angelic Order.

There is no "new mystical" meaning to anything DW..its just that you are not aware of the true meanings and the usages of the different words.

Now as you said you don't know what I am trying to argue...I am sure this is true because you have no knowledge of what is behind what you are arguing. This is not being said to be rude or mean, it is just a fact.

So you know..the Chief Princes in Dan 10 that were mentioned were all Archangels..Michael is Just One of them..and He is not a "Messenger" that is Gabriel and Zedkiels Order. You do know that both are Archangels don't you?

The Seventh Day Adventists which through Russell the belief of Michael being Jesus was borrowed, did not understand the Angelic Order nor did they recognize that Michael was not a message bearer..but a Host of the Heavenly Armies

Good Day DW.. I did enjoy what you wrote to the gentlemen, but it was inaccurate...and as you know i am not a Trinitarian so the modalism and Trinitarian based arguments don't work with me.

Oh yeah..lets look at a couple more things;

JWS believe Jesus is: Michael, Apollyon, Abaddon

Question: If Jesus is Michael, explain this scripture:Luke 10:18 in correlation with Rev.12

Luke 10:18
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Rev12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


These scriptures tie into 2 of the JW Doctrines....1914 and Jesus being Michael.

Note: In Luke Jesus said he beheld or watched it happen...so it had already taken place#not in 1914#
Why did he not say "he" cast down Satan or He and his Angels, or His Angels? Why did he not even imply such a thing?

In Revelation 12 John was given a vision of what had already happened...Satan was cast down by Michael and his Angels..Jesus witnessed this event.

So according to scripture, did he witness it or did he do it?

There are 7 Archangels according to scripture DW..I guess you will learn this when the WTBS finally turns the pages on the books they read or read the paragraphs below.

You do also know that according to scripture, there are different orders of Angels Seraphim and Cherubim being Higher in Rank than Archangels..You also should know being a Bible Student, that Satan was of one of the Highest Orders of Angels....Ezek.28 and an Archangel...you do believe the Bible don't you?

Good Day DW
I hope that we can discuss this matter without the usual negativity..it is a very good subject and much can be learned.

Rev. Darryl Murphy

ANSWER: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,1.If you really understood the Angelic Order in the Bible, you would understand there are more than 1 Chief or Archangel...I know it is hard for you to swallow because that fact alone nullifies your arguments.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I understand the angelic order it still doesn't change the fact that the word archangel is only used in the singular. There's cherubs and seraphs and all sorts but archangel is still only used in the singular.

Archangel is chief of the angels. One chief of the angels that's it.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,2.You said Jesus was called the word in the beginning because he was Gods Chief messenger..However this is not the reason. That is what was explained too you about John 1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You didn't explain anything!!

This is Michael right here

Gen 3:

8 "Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God walking in the garden"

There he is the word or voice of Jehovah and that's because he's the chief messenger.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<3. I'm not giving you what I think things mean...I'm giving you what the Bible says they mean. Did you know that even Satan was called the Bright and Morning Star? These are things you need to be aware of when making such interpretations. Jesus himself in Latin Scriptures is referred too as Lucifer..which simply means "Light Bearer" or "Illuminated One" but we both know Satan was not Gods Chief messenger...He was however part of A higher Angelic Order>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes of course Satan was because he was a morning star being one of the first created angels, of course he is.

Look your still coming back with the same points.

I showed you what a morning star was according to scripture a morning star is an angel that's what the Bible say's we see it in Job and in Revelation and every time it refers to an angel.

You can't just tell me that the Bible uses the expression morning star but then doesn't interpret what it means at all.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<So you know..the Chief Princes in Dan 10 that were mentioned were all Archangels..Michael is Just One of them..and He is not a "Messenger" that is Gabriel and Zedkiels Order. You do know that both are Archangels don't you?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A chief prince is not necessarily an archangel here's another chief prince already and he's not an archangel

Dan 8:

25 "And against the Prince of princes he will stand up"

That's Jehovah, he's a chief prince and not an archangel. So again your expression "princes" in the plural still doesn't mean there's more than one archangel!! it just means there's more than  one spirit creature with lot's of authority.

So you keep telling me that there's more than one archangel still doesn't work. You do realize that you can't just tell me things without backing them up. So tell me where is archangel used in the BIBLE in plural?? Only then can you start to form an argument.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Good Day DW.. I did enjoy what you wrote to the gentlemen, but it was inaccurate...and as you know i am not a Trinitarian so the modalism and Trinitarian based arguments don't work with me.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You know you can say it's inaccurate all you want, but I've backed up everything I've said with scripture. Again you're just coming to me telling me that "a morning star" is not an angel although the Bible say's it is. Your telling me that there's more than one archangel when the Bible only uses it in the singular. Your also telling me that Jesus being chief messenger has nothing to do with the fact he is also called the voice of Jehovah or the word of Jehovah because he is his messenger.

Your coming to me trying to bamboozle me with education when it's actually really,really
simple.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Question: If Jesus is Michael, explain this scripture:Luke 10:18 in correlation with Rev.12>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In Luke 10:18 Jesus was talking in prophetic language this isn't unusual in scripture here's another example of Jesus talking in prophetic language

John 16:

33 "take courage! I have conquered the world"

Yet he hadn't conquered the world yet had he, he still had to go through his agonizing death.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<In Revelation 12 John was given a vision of what had already happened...Satan was cast down by Michael and his Angels..Jesus witnessed this event.>>>>>>>>>>

Revelation is a book of prophecy not history. This is how it starts

Rev 1 "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place"

So it hadn't happened yet it was still to happen.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<So according to scripture, did he witness it or did he do it?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

No according to scripture he did it!!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<You do also know that according to scripture, there are different orders of Angels Seraphim and Cherubim being Higher in Rank than Archangels..You also should know being a Bible Student, that Satan was of one of the Highest Orders of Angels....Ezek.28 and an Archangel...you do believe the Bible don't you?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes as I said I know about Angelic order, but also as I said you can claim there's other archangels all day long it still doesn't change the fact that the Bible say's there isn't

<<<<<<<<<<<<Good Day DW
I hope that we can discuss this matter without the usual negativity..it is a very good subject and much can be learned>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There's nothing to be discussed, as normal it's the same thing with you time after time. Sweeping statement after sweeping statement with a little bit of "I know Greek" thrown in, whilst forgetting that it really doesn't need to be that complicated.

Look I'm not being funny but I really don't have time to sit and discuss this. I've made my position clear on the subject. I did ask you not to follow up if I where you I wouldn't do it again it will probably be a waste of your time I'll likely just flat out reject it.

Take Care







---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: DW...no need for rejection...just become Biblical. There are no sweeping statements and no  "I know greek" etc etc..just stateents.

The Bible clearly states more than 1 Archangel. You say you know the Order of Angels, then you should know that Gabriel is an Archangel....You would also know that "CHief Prince" is talking about Archangels..did not the scriptures say " Michael, One of the Chief Princes"?

You say you know the Order, state you know Satan was of the Order and an Archangel, but then say there is only one because it is used singular..Hmmm

This tells me that you know nothing of Hebrew or Greek...Is Elohim singular or plural? By you not being familiar with these things, it leaves you incapable of understanding.


Believe as you wish..but it was not Michael in the Garden...but you know the Order..so you should know that too correct?

Answer
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<The Bible clearly states more than 1 Archangel. You say you know the Order of Angels, then you should know that Gabriel is an Archangel...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sweeping statement

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,,You would also know that "CHief Prince" is talking about Archangels>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sweeping statement


<<<<<<<<<<..did not the scriptures say " Michael, One of the Chief Princes"?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes the Bible does say that, but I've already shown that a chief prince is not just archangels

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,You say you know the Order, state you know Satan was of the Order and an Archangel,>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I never said Satan was an archangel, why would I say that when the Bible say's he was a cherub??

Eze 28:

14 "You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you"

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<but then say there is only one because it is used singular..Hmmm>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That's right archangel is only used in the singular

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<This tells me that you know nothing of Hebrew or Greek...Is Elohim singular or plural?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Plural, but it still doesn't change the fact that archangel is only used in the singular

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,Believe as you wish..but it was not Michael in the Garden...but you know the Order..so you should know that too correct?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sweeping statement.

So what are you now trying to tell everyone that there's another angel called the voice of God,but the reason he's called that is nothing to do with the fact that he's an angel or messenger. We also can't scripturally identify him even though the Bible say's this.

Prov 8:

31 "being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men"

Ok next time you're getting a rejection. I'm not going over the same points constantly

Take Care

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I have many years of experience serving Jehovah . I have known Jehovah a long time and I have known his organization . I have been privileged to see great progress not only in my own personal relationship with my God and Father but within his organization. I am an avid reader of the bible and have been gifted by my Father with the indescribable privilege of being allowed to understand his own word.

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The truth is all about scripture and logic. The two go hand in hand . There is not one bible verse that cannot be understood within the realms of human reasoning. Not one!! Why would it?? The bible is God's message to his creation . His creation who he made to understand things in a specific way. God is not stupid or unwise as to leave as a message then allow us to guess what it means or who he is. 1 Tim 2:3This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth" Notice the expression "accurate knowledge".

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The bible leaves signs of true christianity there are many. Jehovah's witnesses meet every single sign. One sign is the removal of false teachings that permeated the world soon after the apostles died. Jesus foretold this and he also foretold of the restoration of pure worship in the period known as the last days. The days we are currently living in. Jesus was a master of using illustrations he used an illustration to highlight this point Matt 13: "The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse" Why did he speak in illustrations? Matt 13:10So the disciples came and said to him: “Why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” 11In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted" The kingdom of the heavens is full of sacred secrets that Jesus reveals only to his followers. This privilege is open to all who are really willing to submit to God and his Christ in action not just in words. These are the ones God is looking for. Are you really one?? If so I encourage you to let Jehovah's witnesses show you what the Bible really teaches.

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False religion is disgusting to God and to his true worshippers it is likened in the Bible to a harlot Rev 17:"I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication" Whereas the bride of Christ is likened to a virgin Rev 14: 4"These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins" These are both used as spiritual terms here and show the importance of pure and clean worship for God's people.

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