Jehovah`s Witness/Can you please let me know the answer?
I read this post from Bro. Grunbaum:
I'm just wondering why he didn't just answer JOHANS' last follow-up!! So it's makin' me like (@_@)(who's right between these two expert?) YES! I would admit that I'm a slow-dumb-learner so it kinda' full of like these (?????) in my head. I don't think IGNORING someone's argument because it really feels like a very nonsense to you(because you know the whole point) is a fine/good/clever way of volunteering here as an expert. Because if your purpose of volunteering here is to really PREACH the good news, and really wanted the people to KNOW the TRUTH, then there's no such thing as "NONSENSE"!!! for you are here to make all "NONSENSE" right! Unless if the questionaire's purpose is fighting, then that's the time I guess that you are going to ignore him/her. But if he has a false biblical argument then you are RESPONSIBLE for making it right through answering him scripturally. No if's or but's or any types of rejection because the REASON why you're here is because you are READY to be QUESTIONED, to be CRITICIZED, to be HUMILIATED, and etc. And if you don't want to be treated as SUCH, then I think, you must LEAVE the forum or better WARNED the readers in your PROFILE that you are here just for the senseful argument that YOU only "LIKE" to answer! (Well, it's just an opinion anyway, because as one of the slow-dumb-learner, IGNORANT reader in this site, I think that you as an EXPERT must be SPECIFIC all the time) PEACE :-)
BTW-Can you answer this for me DW?
This is JOHAN's Last follow-up:
"---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: You ask why I choss you ! Quite simple ! I want people to see what a fine Christian witness you are when asked real questions , questions that help JW to think, questions that might be the beginning of questioning their teachings in the light of the Bible , questions that might lead many a JW to true freedom!
You might delight in putting yourself on the victorious chair with your words , but Grunbaum people read and form conclusions on the way you answer and behave here!
I have interacted with many JW including to name big WT apologist such as Greg Stafford , Martin Smart and Apologist on the internet for years and just where are they today ? They are no longer JW with Apologist the latest to have left and recently broke his silence after seven years at http://www.topix.com/
telling us that the WTS latest change re the Faithful and the discreet slave was the nail that sealed the coffin and believe you me , many are going to leave the borg about the latest change re the FDS!Bear in mind they were just as convinced as you were , far better apologist then you can ever be, but starting reading their Bibles on their own lead then to see the WT is in error!
I am quite baffled that you quite Ps 110: and 1 Cor 15 : 25 and Acts 2: 33 -34
All these verses deal with what was fulfilled in their lifetime!It is no brainer and anyone can read those verses and understand it just that way even with half their brain .
JW rewrite 1 Cor 15: 25
HE MUST RULE AS KING
HE MUST START TO RULE AS KING AFTER THE GENTILE TIMES EXPIRED IN 1914
Yet Paul was writing in the Present tense : HE MUST RULE AS KING!!!
All these verses you show shares how the Holy Spirit communicated through the Apostles the promise to seat one on Davids descendands on his throne which was fullfiled by the resurrection and exaltation of the Lord Jesus to the right hand of His Father!
Rev 12 is not talking about 1914 either , Rev 12 is a fillfulment of Jesus words that cause of his death Satan will be cast to heaven Jn 12: 30 - 31
JW have actually replaced Jesus victory on Golgota with that of a different kind of Good news that of a war that happened in 1914 being the establishment of a Kingdom in the heavens,
JW will have you believe that Jesus death on the cross was not good enough to triumph over Satan , no he still had to fight it out in heaven in 1914 yet in Jesus own words as explained by John
Now is the judgment of the world and shall the prince be cast out .And when Ill be lifted up(going to heaven) will draw all sorts of men to me! This he said signifying what death he should die. Jn 12 : 30 33
Simple reading from the text Jesus is telling us that as a result of his death Satan will be cast out and people will be drawn to JESUS !
Jesus victory was on the cross at Golgota Grunbaum
When He had DISARMED the RULERS and AUTHORITIES and put them to open shame /he made a display of them having triumphed over them by the cross ! Col 2: 15
Just five verses earlier Paul tell us Jesus is
..the head over every authority and power Col 2: 10
Yet according to your leaders the Kingdoms of the world BECAME the Kingdom of God and His Christ !
Shall I type one more time
THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD BECAME THE KINGDOM OF THE LORD AND HIS MESSIAH ...
And you say with your excellent reply
..But did that mean the kingdom began ruling on the earth
You see Grunbaum this is actually why I chose you and why I love the net thang! It shows folks how JW reply to questions like these sometimes never thinking what they are saying all for the sake of defending the borg !
What you are actually saying is that the Bible says the Father and Son has a Kingdom that BECAME theirs yet they dont rule OVER what is theirs !
And dont forget according to JW who defend the NWT to death that while some translations say
You have made them to be a kingdom of priest ON/EPI the earth the NWT says rule OVER'/EPI the earth (Rev 5: 10) arguing that it really does not make a difference at all since OVER/EPI or ON/EPI does not change anything since it mean the same thing !
So Grunbaum if the Kingdoms of the world became Jesus in 1914 then who really rules the world ? "
Thanks for writing
If you read the question from Johan you will see that it is a loaded question. He makes it quite clear that he asked Ben because he wants people to base their salvation on a person's behaviour.
He was expecting Ben to answer in a way that would make people think "these Jehovah's witnesses can't possibly have the truth, because look at how rude they are" this is Satanic tactics that all apostates and opposers advocate. It's something they try to keep secret and they weep and gnash their teeth when you point it out.
If you where here when I first joined the board I pointed this out it's a tactic employed by ones like Johan and Derrick Holland, they try to divert your attention away from Bible teachings and on to a person's character. Then when you point it out they desperately try to backtrack on their actions. This is the way of Satan this was his first tactic in the Garden of Eden. Satan said "God is a liar I know he created you and he gave you a beautiful paradise and everything you could ever want, but you know what,he does tell lies" and Eve fell for it. Make the messenger look bad because you can't beat the message.That's Satan's way and the apostate way. That's what Johan here is trying with Ben.He was also just making a blatant attempt to shipwreck Ben's faith and everyone else reading. That's why Ben answered the way he did. I see it from our perspective, but also from your perspective so I will answer this question.
The point is that Jesus couldn't rule before there was an America. This is what it say's in Daniel
44 "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom"
In the days of THOSE KINGS the seventh King was given in this dream this King is Anglo-America there wasn't even an American government until the late 1700's America wasn't even discovered until the late 1400's the Bible was finished being written well before both these events about 1300 years before the seventh King was even discovered.
So how can it be in the day's of THOSE kings in Bible times when THOSE kings weren't even all in existence??
So immediately Johan's argument fails
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD BECAME THE KINGDOM OF THE LORD AND HIS MESSIAH>>>>>>>>>
This again is largely in prophetic language, there's many things written in the Bible as if they've already occurred because nothing can stop them occurring here's the parallel scripture to this
18 "And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth"
So according to this scripture and Johan's argument Jesus should be King even before he's gone back to heaven.
What about this scripture
33" take courage! I have conquered the world"
So according to Johan, Jesus has defeated all his enemies here even before he's been sacrificed!!
How about this
6 "And now I myself have given all these lands into the hand of Neb·u·chad·nez′zar the king of Babylon, my servant; and even the wild beasts of the field I have given him to serve him"
So again according to Johan all these nations served Babylon before Babylon had even conquered them!!
So no Johan's argument is just typical of the apostate/opposer it shows a complete lack of Biblical insight.
Jesus began ruling as King and as King started having an influence on the world,he sent down Satan then he appointed messengers , witnesses who he rules over now. We are those messengers and we tell people that he is ruling and will destroy all the Kingdoms of the world. This all started in 1914 and that's when God's Kingdom became the highest ruling government in the universe and this is when the words in Rev 11:15 began to be fulfilled. Jesus will continue to have that influence until this happens
44 " It(God's Kingdom) will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms"
Then the words in Revelation 11:15 will have it's full completion.
Be back in a week.