Jehovah`s Witness/Sweet Brother Ed!
Hello Mr Holland,
Over the past week we have seen quite a bit of Ole Brother Ed, concerning "Spiritual Israel".
Here are a few quotes from this gentleman:
"After reading, my jaw dropped as it's one of the most idiotic statements I've ever read.
Wow, this person have no clue at all.
Truly sad the state of Christendom - they have no clue even of their coming destruction.
So Christendom believe that the Nation of Israel today, the Republic Of Israel will eventually accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Is this another idiotic statement?
So these people are in dreamland believing that Israel as a Nation today will have national change of heart -lol.
Oh - it's in the prophecy they say but they have no idea who the prophecy is applied to today - The Israel of God - a spiritual nation populated by both Gentile and Jew!
Man, these people are so far behind in time - just like the Jewish Nation today - still waiting for their "Messiah" - a militant "Messiah"."
Where to even begin?
I would venture to say, with someone so blatantly misguided in their understanding of the bible, maybe his calling people "idiots" would be a nice place to start.
A simple reading of Romans 11 in its entirety will put his replacement theology to rest.
"UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." (caps mine)
This also ties with the 144,000 spoken of ONLY in the Revelation.
King James Version (KJV)
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
King James Version (KJV)
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Replacement theologists, what can I say?
Good afternoon, Kevin. Good to hear from you today.
Yeah, I saw the posts between Ed and Grunbaum. In fact, I responded yesterday to one of them, in my answer to Johan. I see today that Ed followed up to Grunbaum, and basically repeated what he said in the other writing. And that’s the thing with these guys….they are programmed. Even when refuted, they never say anything new, or true. Its just the same stuff thrown out there over and over, and they hope that if they throw it out enough times, it will stick. Well, it doesn’t.
Now, I truthfully am not worried too much about ole’ Ed and Benyamin/Daniel. I honestly read the posts of Ed, with amusement. I mean, how credible is it when a guy who calls other people “idiotic”, and yet himself cannot even SPELL the word “Messiah” properly in his question? Would you call people “idiotic”, if you couldn’t even spell “Messiah” in the title of your question, Kevin? And would you call people "idiotic" for believing the prophecies of Scripture, and then fail to even give ONE Scripture of your own, in support of your view?
Now, I have no idea whether this is the person named “Ed” that tried to write me a few weeks back, calling both me and the King James translators, “liars”. It wouldn’t surprise me, though, as this Ed puts about as much actual thought into his posts, as the other Ed did. The other Ed was supposed to come back and explain why Mr. Tyndale rendered Acts 12:4 as “Easter”, but after reading where I told him what questions I would expect him to answer, he apparently decided to not follow up.
Now, that being said, I want to point out a few things from Ed’s words, that I believe show beyond all doubt, the mind control and programming that JWs are victims of. They vehemently deny it, but their own words in posts like this, prove it.
First, did you notice that all Ed could do, is refer to those who believe that Bible prophecy will be fulfilled TO the very people whom it was prophesied about, as “idiotic”? Did Ed give even a single Bible verse in his follow-up? I didn’t see any. There wasn’t a SINGLE ONE.
I think if Ed is going to call Bible-believers “idiotic” for believing the Scriptures, then he should have provided some Scriptures of his own. He didn’t…Instead, all he did was give us Ed’s OPINION as to why HE THINKS that Israel will never accept Christ.
So, its Ed’s opinon vs. the Scriptures….Decisions, decisions, decisions.
Also, I noticed that Ed feels much safer writing to Grunbaum, rather than writing me directly about his disagreement with the Scriptural prophecies concerning Israel. Of course, if we are so “idiotic”, you would think he wouldn’t be so scared to take us on and show the world just how “idiotic” we are….LOL.
Kevin, can you explain why these people (Ed, the John 2:19 questioner, which may very well BE Ed, etc), feel so brave to call other people names to a JW expert who will back them up, but don’t have the guts to actually take on the experts they perceive as “idiotic” themselves?
But notice a few of Ed’s brain-washed statements. I quote….
ED: “So Christendom believe that the Nation of Israel today, the Republic Of Israel will eventually accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Is this another idiotic statement?”
This comment from Ed, proves just how clueless he is about what “Christendom“ believes, and Grunbaum’s answer shows just how clueless he is, as well, concerning what “Christendom” teaches. The bad part about Grunbaum being so clueless, is that he presumes to KNOW what he’s talking about when he doesn’t. If he doesn’t know, that’s fine. But when he talks like he does know, and spreads false information, then he has no business talking.
Besides, Grunbaum claims to hold a Doctorate from “Christendom”, and claims to have been a former clergy in “Christendom”. I would like to challenge him to tell us what institution he got his degree from, and what denomination he was a minister in. I don’t believe he will tell us, because I personally think that is a bogus claim. No way a man with a doctorate, and a former minister in “Christendom”, could be so far off base as to what is taught on such topics as: the rapture, the Trinity, the Gospel, The Jew’s role in prophecy, etc.
But Ed claims that “Christendom” teaches the nation of Israel today, will eventually accept Jesus Christ as Messiah. (Hey, he spelled it right that time.)
Here’s the problem with that statement….The JWs’ define “Christendom” as every one else BESIDES THEM, who profess Christianity. Well, that isn’t even close to accurate. It would have been MUCH more accurate, to say that the groups who take the Bible LITERALLY, believe that God will fulfill His promises to the actual Jews, whom He made the promises to.
But in fact, there are a NUMBER of groups in “Christendom”, who teach the same “replacement theology” hogwash that JWs teach. Here are a few:
1. Church of Christ (mentioned in my last answer)
2. Roman Catholic Church
3. United Methodist Church
4. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons)
5. Evangelical Lutheran Church of America
6. Presbyterian Church, USA
7. Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod
8. African Methodist Episcopal Church
9. The Episcopal Church
10. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
11. United Church of Christ
12. Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, Joplin, MO
So Ed, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but this idea of “spiritual Israel”, is not unique nor thought of by your religion. Nor is the term “spiritual Israel” mentioned, or taught, anywhere in the Scriptures. Since I made that same statement in my post yesterday, you missed a great chance to show where it was found in the Bible, in your follow-up. You should have done that, instead of wasting more time calling people “idiotic”. Why didn’t you show from Scripture, that our statement is “idiotic”?
So Ed, from the above list of “replacement theology” denominations, we can see that your statement where you said…”So Christendom believe that the Nation of Israel today, the Republic Of Israel will eventually accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah”, was completely a false and inaccurate comment.
It would have been MUCH more accurate, to have said that the groups who take the Bible LITERALLY (meaning, that it means what it says), believe that the nation of Israel will eventually accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah.
Do your homework, Ed…You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Now, on to Ed’s next statement, for which he gave us no Scripture, but only HIS opinion…After asking if this was another “idiotic statement”, Ed says….
ED: “I think so because there's no way in the world would a Nation like Israel of today will accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah for the simple fact that they rejected him long time ago and still reject him today. And most of all Jehovah God will NOT force them to do so or send Jesus again to witness to them. So these people are in dreamland believing that Israel as a Nation today will have national change of heart -lol”
REPLY: Notice the all-important words “I think so”, followed by Ed’s fascinating opinion. But there’s another problem…Ed’s reason made no sense. Let’s look at it….
Ed says here that “there’s no way in the world” that Israel will accept Jesus Christ. What is his reason? Simple….Because they rejected him in the past, and still do.
Yes, as incredible as it may seem, that’s what he said. Now, I guess that according to Ed, nobody who has rejected Christ in the past, or who is currently rejecting Him, will ever accept Him in the future. Now, where he gets a notion like that, is anybody’s guess. Doesn’t sound very convincing, though. I personally know of MANY people who have rejected Christ, but come to accept Him at a later time.
And that is exactly what God says will happen to Israel. Let’s look at some of the plainest statements in the Scriptures, which clearly show this….
Romans 11:1-3- “I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
NOTE: To the above question, Ed, Benyamin, and the WT say “yes”. Paul, and the Scriptures, say “no”
v.2- God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
NOTE: To the above verse, Ed, Benyamin, and the WT say…”Uh, yes He has. He replaced them with us…SPIRITUAL ISRAEL!!!!”
And notice that it says that God FOREKNEW them? Hmm…wouldn’t this mean that He FOREKNEW that they would not initially accept Jesus as the Messiah, but would reject Him?? In spite of this FOREKNOWING, God still did not permanently cast them off.
And THAT is what the Scripture says.
v.3- Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.”
NOTE: I am anxious for Ed, Benyamin, or the WT to come on here, and explain how this can possibly be talking about “spiritual Israel”, and not NATIONAL ISRAEL, when it says that they have “killed thy prophets and digged down thine altars”, in the day of Elias?
There WAS NO “spiritual Israel” in the day of Elias, so how could they have done all this, when they didn’t exist? Perhaps one of these fine gentlemen, would care to explain to us “idiotic” Bible-believers, just WHEN “spiritual Israel” committed the acts spoken of in verse 3?
Let’s read on….
v. 7- “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
v. 8- (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
v. 9- And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
v. 10- Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”
NOTE: It is obvious from the above verses, that Jehovah God wasn’t exactly caught off guard by Israel’s rejection of the Messiah. In fact, when we read on, we see that their “blindness” and “cutting off”, opened the way for the Gentiles to come in. Yet, in spite of their rejection and subsequent “blindness”, we read in the very next verse, that they are NOT permanently rejected by Jehovah God.
v. 11- “I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
v. 12- Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?”
NOTE: This perfectly illustrates what I said above, as to Israel’s rejection opening the way for the Gentiles to come into the fold (John 10:16).
I wonder if Ed thinks these verses are “idiotic”? Why does verse 12 mention “their fulness”, if this isn’t ever going to happen?
Now, in the verses that follow, it REALLY starts to get interesting….And OBVIOUS that the Watchtower is in error.
v. 15- “For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?”
NOTE: So, we see that the nation of Israel was cast away, so that the world could be reconciled, but that they will be RECEIVED again, and this is stated to be “life from the dead”! Basically, showing the go from a state of rejection, to acceptance of their Messiah.
This next set of verses, are some that I think Grunbaum and Ed need to pay CLOSE attention to, because when they refer to this belief as “idiotic”, they are actually speaking blasphemy against the Scriptures themselves. That is not a wise thing to do.
v. 19- “Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
v. 20- Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
v. 21- For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
v. 22- Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
v. 23- And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.”
NOTE: I think we are getting a clear picture now. The Jews were cast off because of unbelief, and likened to an olive tree, whose “natural branches” have been cut off. Yet, the same God that cut them off, is “ABLE TO GRAFF THEM IN AGAIN”. What is the basis for them being grafted back in? Their ABIDING NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF.
I think that was the very notion that Ed referred to as “idiotic”, and gave us his OPINION, as to why it couldn’t happen. But again, Ed’s words are in direct disagreement with the Bible.
I would love to see how they can dance around this, and try to say that is talking about “spiritual Israel”. When was “spiritual Israel” cut off, exactly?
v. 24- “For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?”
NOTE: Again, we see that the point is emphasized that the “natural brances”…the Jews…will be grafted back in again. No debate on this one. This was a reminder to the Gentiles…the “wild branches”…., not to be proud, because just as they were grafted into the tree, God is able to graft the natural branches back in as well.
v. 25- “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
NOTE: If God doesn’t want us to be ignorant, then why do JWs continue to remain ignorant about God’ plans for Israel, especially when they are so clearly stated in this chapter? Their ignorance has led them to “be wise in their own conceits”…What’s more conceited than to think that THEY are “spiritual Israel”, and the recipients on the promises that God reneged on to the people that He made them to?
Also, the question is HOW LONG is Israel to remain in blindness? Ed, Grunbaum, and the WT claim this is permanent. But again, the Scriptures disagree completely. It says they remain in blindness, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles come in.
So again, do they want to tell us this is “spiritual Israel”? Why would the Christian congregation be said to be in “blindness”, until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in?
But the most damaging verses for the “replacement theology” teaching, by far, is found in the next set of verses. These verses contain some statements, that Ed will find “idiotic”. He and Grunbaum can give their opinions, as to why God is wrong here, and why this belief makes no sense. But here it is, nonetheless…
v. 26- “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.”
NOTE: It couldn’t be clearer….ALL Israel SHALL BE SAVED. Hmm, that sounds like what I, and Johan, just said the other day…that God still has plans for Israel, and that they will come to belief in their Messiah, Jesus Christ. That isn’t something we just came up with…that is what the Bible says.
It is also what these JWs call “idiotic”.
Now, Ed also wrote the following….
ED: “ And most of all Jehovah God will NOT force them to do so or send Jesus again to witness to them.”
REPLY: Well, of COURSE Jehovah will not force them to repent. Where did that come from? This is such a Biblically-ignorant statement, because it fails to take into account the PURPOSE for the Tribulation period, one of which is TO BRING Israel to repentance. How does anyone read the Scriptures, and miss that? I guess by reading more of the WT literature, than the Bible.
Jehovah doesn’t have to FORCE them to repent…He simply has to remove the blindness, and He has the foreknowledge of the future, that He tells us right here in v. 26 that they WILL be saved. Has nothing to do with forcing them…It has to do with His foreknowledge, and Him telling us what is going to happen.
Nothing else needs to be said about that, for it was a ridiculous and irrelevant statement.
ED: “So these people are in dreamland believing that Israel as a Nation today will have national change of heart -lol.
An individual Israelite will have a change of heart like our brothers in Israel but as a nation - what are they smoking?”
REPLY: Not smoking anything, Ed, and not living in “dreamland”. Not living in Watchtower-land, for that matter either, like you are.
Just reading the Scripture, and taking it for what it says. You, on the other hand, are reading literature that promotes a heresy that many other groups have also fallen in to. And in the process, you deny plain statements of Scripture, like the ones listed above.
ED: “Oh - it's in the prophecy they say but they have no idea who the prophecy is applied to today - The Israel of God - a spiritual nation populated by both Gentile and Jew!”
REPLY: Well Ed, that is what you have failed to show Scripturally. And I don’t think you can. Where is the Scripture that says Israel is now “spiritual”, and that God has no intentions of keeping His promises to the NATION of Israel?
Again Ed, all you did here was state your opinion, which means nothing. I guess Ed really does think God is like the guy who promises his wife a diamond ring, and buys it for another woman instead, and then says…”I didn’t lie…I bought the ring, I just didn’t buy it for who I said I was going to.”
ED: “Man, these people are so far behind in time - just like the Jewish Nation today - still waiting for their "Messiah" - a militant "Messiah".
REPLY: Now THAT is an interesting statement…”behind in time”? Seriously? Ed, I believe it is you who needs to turn on his TV, and watch how Jerusalem is the center-point in the news on a weekly basis. This is funny, because as time goes on, it becomes MORE obvious that God isn’t done with Israel.
First off, how do they explain why there EVEN IS a nation of Israel? This is impossible, after Israel losing its national identity for over 1,900 years, to once again become a nation. This was nothing short of fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
Secondly, how do they explain the survival of the Jewish people for the past 2,000 years, despite all the numerous attempts to destroy them?
Also along these lines, it is for this very reason (keeping up with the times) that a former JW told me that one of the things that he first realized the WT was wrong about, was this very issue. He told me that as hard as he tried to keep believing WT teaching on “spiritual Israel”, he could no longer deny what was happening in the world today, and the obvious role that Israel is playing in that. It was for this reason, that he came to reject this notion of “replacement theology”.
And Ed talks about being “behind the times”…I would suggest that Ed open his eyes and GET WITH the times, and start reading his Bible and just believe what God has told him in it, for it is Ed's "replacement" heresy that is behind the times, to the point that you basically have to lock yourself in a room and have no contact with the outside world, and not see anything that is happening in the Middle East, in order to keep believing that nonsense about "spiritual Israel" replacing national Israel.
And then Grunbaum proceeded to quote a verse in 1 Peter 2:9, and then followed it with one of the most ridiculous statements to date, in any of his answers. Let me quote…
GRUNBAUM: “But they have to reject this verse in doing so:
(1 Peter 2:9) 9 But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. . .
They have two choices on this verse,they can stubbornly say this apply to the Republic of Israel over in the middle east or take a pair of scissors to this verse.”
REPLY: Grunbaum is trying to create a false dilemma here, by saying we “have to reject a verse”, and have “2 choices..say it applies to Israel, or take a pair of scissors” to it.
Actually, we don’t have to reject ANY verse. But as we have seen in the verses listed above, the JW followers DO have to reject Bible verses…a BUNCH of them.
Nor do we have to either apply this verse to Israel, OR take a pair of scissors to it. We Bible-believers have no issue at all with this verse, because we understand that it clearly refers to the Christian church, and is completely irrelevant to a discussion on “spiritual Israel”. Again, the context of that passage has nothing to do with any "spiritual Israel", nor is it discussed anywhere in this chapter. Nor is National Israel's future role in God's plans, discussed either. This is a passage about what the Christian believers ARE, not a statement about what Israel is no longer.
Talk about grasping for straws in thin air.
Furthermore, we have no problem believing this verse, because we do not believe that Israel is CURRENTLY in a state of restoration. We understand fully that this takes place during the latter part of the Tribulation period, just before the Millenial reign of Christ. We DO, however, believe that the events that are happening today in Israel, are proof that the propheciesa are beginning to come to pass, and that they will be completely fulfilled.
So, that was another completely false and ridiculous statement, and betrays a complete lack of understanding of Christian doctrine.
Nothing against Grunbaum as a person…Just showing that his comment was completely irrelevant to this discussion.
Now, so much more could be said. I could easily go into the Old Testament prophecies concerning Israel, such as Ezekiel 37, and show how this chapter refutes the WT nonsense about them being “spiritual Israel”.
And I am certainly willing to do that, if need be. But it really wasn’t necessary in this writing, because just looking at Romans chapter 11, completely demolishes the WT teaching on this issue, and shows Ed’s and Grunbaum’s statements to be complete nonsense. Those passages in Romans 11 don’t need interpretation…They simply say the exact OPPOSITE of what these guys say.
They say Israel is cut off permanently…Romans 11 says Israel’s cutting off is NOT permanent, and that they will be grafted back into the tree again.
They say Israel will NOT be saved…Romans 11 says that “ALL Israel shall be saved”.
This one was easy. Both sides AGREE that God made promises concerning the restoration of Israel in the Old Testament. But this chapter in the New Testament, settles the issue of whether or not God will actually fulfill those promises to Israel as He said, or if He is going to break His promises to them, as the JW’s doctrine implies. It also settles the issue of whether God is referring to “spiritual Israel”, or NATIONAL Israel.
So no, their statements contain no Scriptural merit at all.