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Jehovah`s Witness/Attacks against you... Rando, DW and The name Jehovah

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Hello Brother Holland...its been a while since we have corresponded, hope all is well with you.

I was reading through all the latest posts and found one that was amusing to me. It seems you have ruffled the feathers of Rando and he is on a mission to give you a "spiritual slappin"..lol

What I found amusing was this "Two scriptures that trinitarians falsify are: (Rev 1:8) and (Acts 2:21).  Since Derrick Holland knows that God's Name has been removed, he bears false witness against Jehovah."  When I saw that Rando posted this I almost fell out my chair laughing at his ignorance of scriptures and how they relate.

As you know, I although being a Baptist Minister am not a "trinitarian", however I acknowledge a Trinity does in fact exist. (would take some explaining)Being a Religious Historian, Historian of Religious Doctrine and origins as well as Hebrew/Greek, I am very familiar of this so called "removal" of the name "Jehovah", actually "YHVH" but we wont get technical.

Now since he put it in public for the readers to make up their minds on things, I pose a question to him and all that read. What was Jesus saying at John 8:

"53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


Now the NWT adds words but basically conveys the same meaning...before Abraham, Jesus existed..but what day did Abraham see?

Or lets try something simple and Basic like this one, and we will take it from the New World Testament:

Acts 4: 10  let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene,+ whom you executed on a stake+ but whom God raised up from the dead,+ by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you. 11  This is the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the chief cornerstone.*+ 12  Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name+ under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved

It should be noted that in the NWT the marginal references lead you to this scriptures:

John 1:12
12  However, to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become Gods children, because they were exercising faith in his name.

John 14:6
6  Jesus said to him: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1 Timothy 2:5, 6
5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6  who gave himself a corresponding ransom for allthis is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

Now if we did this like a Watchtower study, the questions would be as follows:

1. Who does the scriptures say should be received?

2. According to scripture, who's name should we exercise faith in?

3. How is it that we become children of God?

4. What is is that should be witnessed to in due time?

I am taking this route at things because what Rando and DW are not seeing is that the argument is actually...Is Jesus the Jehovah of the Bible. Now for those that dont know, the meaning of "Jehovah" which was first spoken as a "title" means "EXISTING ONE".

For what he calls "false witness against Jehovah" I can only say that if he is truly a student of the Bible, he would know that if you bear "true witness" of the "Son", then you bear "witness also of the Father who sent him!

Look at the words of Jesus himself:
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him

John 5:36-38
King James Version (KJV)
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Now as fair as Acts 2:21 and Rev. 1:8, lets take a look:

Acts 2:21
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Now it is true that the Divine King James Version and the NWT both by whatever means use the name "Jehovah" at this verse. However, it will do the reader well to read the entire chapter in order to get context and true meaning. Verse 21 is a prophetic statement and speaks of the end time. It corresponds with what is being said  at Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now Rev 1:8

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Again, it would do the reader well to read all of what is being stated. If you read verse 7, you will find that it is Jesus who is to come..He is first in all things, last in all things, He is, He was, and He is to come(return).

I could go on and give references in Is, Gen, Exodus etc etc however it would not be understood until a person comes to a realization of a very important fact...All things were created by Jesus. The word "Kurious" translated "Lord" in many passages of scripture means "the one to whom things belong"  Let us look at a passage of scripture:

John 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

We don't have to argue translation of "a" god or God here. The scripture is clear:

1. The "Word (Logos) was in the Beggining
2. All things were made by "Him"
3. In Him was the life

Verses 10-12
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

When the scriptures state "he came unto his own" its speaking of mankind, whom he created.

Col 1:14-20

Colossians 1:14-20
King James Version (KJV)
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

It is in Jesus that we move, breathe and have our being!(acts 17:27)

I laughed because in the Bible, the word Jehovah is used not only as a name, but also a title...it is very important to know how it is being used. The best example is found in the New World Testament:

Isa 44:6 This is what Jehovah says,
The King of Israel+ and his Repurchaser,+ Jehovah of armies:
I am the first and I am the last.+

Divine Name KJV:

6 Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel, and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last;

The KJV states "Lord" of hosts.

Now the danger of bearing false witness would be on the one not knowing what to witness about, or bearing injurious false testimony about Christ and the "Father that sent Him"

Here is the short of it all..Trinitarian or not, you cannot get to know the Father without first fully knowing the Son. Claiming to know and magnify the name Jehovah does no good at all unless the "Son" has revealed all things too you.


I would much rather preach as the early Fathers did:

NWT 1 Cor 1
22  For the Jews ask for signs+ and the Greeks look for wisdom; 23  but we preach Christ executed on the stake, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness.+ 24  However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God

They preached Christ Crucified, His return and the coming Kingdom. The Gospel is Gen to Rev, and is centered on belief in Christ.

John 5:39-40

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


God Keep and Bless you

Rev. Darryl Murphy

Answer
Hello, Brother Murphy.  It has been awhile since we have spoken. I hope you and your family are doing well.  I appreciate your taking the time to write.

As usual, your point is well thought out, and very thorough.  I will simply leave it as it is, and not attempt to add anything to it, because the truth of it speaks for itself.  Plus, I have typed more words today than I ever have...LOL.  I have had several e-mails today from Mr. Grunbaum, and I requested some writings from both him and Sal, and I have actually answered 10 questions today, if my count is correct.  I had to change my settings to do this, but there will be a lot of info posting tomorrow, that should make the demons hiss and scream some more.

I will make a few short comments, however.  You wrote...

"I was reading through all the latest posts and found one that was amusing to me."

Just ONE, my Brother?  Wow...I find that MOST of them are amusing to me.  Especially when you ask them a straightforward simple question, and they can't even answer it.  

Brother Murphy, did you know that the answer to EVERY question, is to talk about the Trinity?  Yep....learned that from Rando's rants.  It doesn't matter WHAT you ask him, the answer is the Trinity.  I said the other day that if you asked Rando what time it was, you had better hope it isn't 3:33, or the number "3" will set him off, and he will start bashing the Trinity again.

But everyone knows that he is merely doing it as a diversion anyway, because he keeps making himself look foolish.  But no matter...I will just keep drawing attention to it, for as long as need be.


You wrote..." It seems you have ruffled the feathers of Rando and he is on a mission to give you a "spiritual slappin"..lol"

NO!!!  What on earth gave you THAT idea??  LOL.

Hey, the "slappin" I can take.  Rando never hits his target anyway.  I am just glad that DW isn't still trying to pull everybody's pants down.  Remember him always saying that, from about a year ago?  I liked to have never gotten that notion out of his head.

Rando couldn't throw a rock and hit the ground with it, so his "slappin" doesn't worry me too much.  Seems like every time he tries, he winds up missing me, and slappin' his own self in the face.  Its amusing to watch, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rSbH2mmVbI

You said..."What I found amusing was this "Two scriptures that trinitarians falsify are: (Rev 1:8) and (Acts 2:21).  Since Derrick Holland knows that God's Name has been removed, he bears false witness against Jehovah."  When I saw that Rando posted this I almost fell out my chair laughing at his ignorance of scriptures and how they relate."

Yeah, I know the part about falling out of your chair laughing...That is why I don't even bother to sit down anymore, when I read Rando's posts.  


Now, I want to commend you on the absolute thorough nature of your writings, and the strong Scriptural support with which you calmly tore their entire argument to shreds.  I was actually thinking about some of these Scriptures myself, when I read his rants, especially Acts 4:12.  That was the main one that came to mind for me.  But you are correct, that Revelation 1:8 and the surrounding context, is clearly referring to Jesus Christ, and you demolished their argument when they try to draw a distinction between "names" and "titles", because as you showed, Jehovah is used both ways.  

I will not try to add anything more to your awesome post, because it speaks for itself.  You are correct that the theme from Genesis to Revelation, all leads up to, and centers around the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.  

Thank you so much for taking the time to write, and God bless.

Derrick  

Jehovah`s Witness

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

Organizations
I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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