Jehovah`s Witness/The Cross - Another JW Red Herring
Derrick wrote at 2013-10-18 12:52:50
Very good post, Jay. But let me tell you WHY Eddie G is not going to be able to answer it. He is determined to cling to the last bit of illogic that he thinks he has left, in that he cannot grasp that a "xylon" is STILL a "xylon"/tree, even if a cross-beam has been attached. The facts are, that ALL the facts and discoveries that we have, have validated the cross as the instrument used. But Eddie has a skewed sense of logic, and is always trying to create a false dilemma, and problems that don't exist. We can see this in his reply to you. He says...The prophecy about Jesus' manner of death: [Deu 21:22-23 KJV] 22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree : 23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance. The fulfillment: "Gal 3:13 KJV - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree (xylon)." Was the prophecy fulfilled if Jesus didn't die on a "tree/pole" but on a traditional cross?
Notice specifically the last question he asks there..."Was the prophecy fulfilled if Jesus didn't die on a "tree/pole" but on a traditional cross?
Of course, the answer is "YES", it was definitely fulfilled. But Eddie is trying his best to hang on to a false notion, and create a false dilemma, by implying that if Jesus died on a cross, then He DIDN'T die on a tree. But as has already been proven beyond all doubt, a "tree" is still a "tree", even if a cross-beam (also a "xylon") is attached to it. It still has the SAME properties it had prior to the cross-beam. He is simply trying to create a problem where there isn't one, and trying to prop up his failing Watchtower doctrine.
The fact that this discussion has gone on now for as long as it has, and he STILL has not answered the evidence, should speak volumes to anyone following this discussion. His entire premise is that a "tree" is not a "tree", if a cross-beam (another part of a "tree"), is attached. Its about like saying a tree is not a tree, if an outside limb is grafted into it. There is no logic, or reason, to their thinking.
Jay wrote at 2013-10-18 18:37:56
As I see it now on the big screen, let me be the first to say that technically I did say 'the point is moot'. I stand corrected. However, when taken in context, you can see I was not referring to prophesy. The way you understood it never entered my mind, so I suppose that's why I did not remember saying it. I was referring to whether or not my eternal destiny is conditioned upon the proper word & description of the object upon which Jesus, My Lord & Savior, was put to death.
Doesn't my saying: "Jesus died according to God's plan & purpose and in the manner prophesied in order that we might be reconciled to Him." show that I am not denying what was prophesied?
Scripture says the cross is an offense and a stumbling block to some.
I Corin 1:18 ~ For the preaching of the across is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
I Corin 1:23 ~ But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews, a stumblingblock and unto the Greeks foolishness;
the one who knows all wrote at 2013-10-19 23:40:13
The biggest issue that JWs have with the cross is not the shape of it but that so many religions use it in religious worship. Derrick denies that happens. Maybe that is so in his church. The simple truth is that the vast majority of people that call themselves Christian and believe that Jesus died on a cross do use it in worship. The cross - pole - torture stake - implement of death, symbolizes nothing except that all people who are truly following the Christ must expect and endure some sort of trial. There is nothing else to it. So Jws will stick to the pole - torture stake for 2 reasons First it is the direct rendering of the Greek words into English, and second as a way of separating or divorcing the idea of using the cross in worship that so many people have had a custom of doing.
Jay wrote at 2013-10-20 22:24:01
I'll repeat once more, as did upfront: "I believe Jesus died according to God's plan and purpose and in the manner prophesied in order that we might be reconciled to Him." I don't see an issue in that. I think that covers it.
Why deal in hypotheses, suppositions, assumptions and conjecture?
I hope this will put your mind at ease: I do not worship or idolize a cross. And I'm not acquainted with anyone who does. You should address your questions to someone who does. Maybe they could answer your questions.