Jehovah`s Witness/Wrong Again Mr. Holland!
Jay wrote at 2013-10-22 20:06:47
Since Eddie seems to want to make Derrick accountable for what I (Jay) said and use my comments as ammunition to try to shoot Derrick down, I would like to say:
Regarding the issue of a stake or a cross, which I believe is what originally started all this:
~~ To go off on a tangent about the shape of the piece of wood Jesus died on is simply a distraction from the reason Jesus died... placing the focus on something other than Jesus' death and its meaning.
There is no detour around the cross. Without it (meaning what took place on that cross) we have no hope... or let me say 'assurance' of our eternal destiny. We can't save ourselves, nor can any other man or organization. God knew that so he provided a way for us to be reconciled to Him. That being the sacrificial death of his Son. We must look to the cross for our salvation, meaning what it represents. The culmination of all that was accomplished on that piece of wood. The meaning or power of the cross is not in the wood.
Scripture speaks of the nailing of one to a tree as a means of execution in those times. So was Jesus literally nailed to a tree? Did Simon the Cyrene carry a tree thru the streets for Jesus. Did Jesus carry a tree up to Golgotha where it was publicly erected with him on it for all to see? To ask if the shape of the piece of wood Jesus died on does or does not fulfill prophecy is ludicrous. As if the answer to that takes precedence over everything else. What foolishness, Eddie.
When I think of a cross, the object itself fades into the background and I am reminded of Jesus and the full extent of what his death accomplished. Of the price that was paid for my salvation.
God's plan of salvation was accomplished... in every aspect, just as prophesied when Jesus said "It is finished." John 19: 28 "After his, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. v. 30 ...and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." Jesus, himself, said all things were accomplished. Nothing else needed to be done, everything concerning his death was as prophesied. In addition, the veil in the temple was rent from top to bottom & the sky became darkened & the earth quaked. Now what does that signify if not that prophesy had just been fulfilled? The law had been fulfilled and we were no longer under the law, but under GRACE! Praise God, Hallelujah & Amen!!
Eddie, you can continue to focus on the object on which Jesus died, I choose to focus on the One who died there in fulfillment of God's plan for the redemption of the sins of the world. To question whether or not prophecy was fulfilled that day is blasphemous!
And please don't attribute anything I've said here to Derrick. I believe he has shown he is more than able to speak for himself. And in a gentlemanly, Christian manner. He backs up what he says with scripture. He doesn't say 'scripture' says without giving the scripture. Or 'it has been proven' without giving the proof. Or 'evidently' without giving the evidence.
I have only been a reader or questioner on this forum for about 3 months. And it didn't take long to spot which 'experts' are sincere about answering people's questions. Then there are others who when having a scripture pointed out that contradicts what they have said will just ignore that scripture & say 'you have your opinion and I have mine'. End of discussion. Others say 'I've already answered that question' when they haven't, meaning they can't answer the question or implying 'you're just too dense to understand it'.
And there are those when backed into a corner will take the WatchTower says it, 'case closed' attitude. Some tend to be rude, disrespectful & condescending. Some just go to the JW archives and 'cut & paste' long essays, whether on the subject or not, as if the more words said, or the more they repeat something the truer it becomes. Verbosity doesn't prove anything. It's not how much is said, but what is said.
Those are my observations... and in such a short time.
Jay wrote at 2013-10-23 04:00:23
Since you used my comments as ammunition in your attempt to shoot down Derrick, I would like to express my opinion here.
~~~I (Jay) stated to you that I believe "Jesus died according to God's plan and in the manner prophesied in order that we might be reconciled to Him.".
~ Which prompted this hypothetical question from you (Eddie): "Was the prophesy fulfilled if Jesus didn't die on a tree/pole but on a traditional cross?" Which I understand to mean: Was the fulfillment of prophecy contingent on the shape of the piece of wood upon which Jesus died... or was it not?
Nailing someone to a tree was a method of execution in Biblical times. I doubt Jesus carried a tree thru the streets of Jerusalem, along with the help of Simon the Cyrene. That he then carried the tree outside the city to Golgotha where he was nailed to it. And what of the two thieves who were being executed beside Jesus that day. Were they on trees also?
~~There is no detour around the cross... meaning what it represents, not its shape. Knowing sinners are unable to save themselves, God had a plan to reconcile 'whosoever will' to Him. That plan was the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ his Son.
~~Without the cross (what it represents), we have no hope... make that no assurance of our eternal destiny.
~~What do you suppose Jesus meant by "It is finished"? If not that prophesy had just been fulfilled. See John 19: 28 "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith I thirst and v 30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said It is finished: and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost." And what about scripture in Matt 27: 45-51 where darkness came over the land, the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom, the earth quaked and the rocks were rent also. Doesn't this testify that prophesy had been fulfilled when Jesus died?
~~It is finished. The veil was rent. The law had been fulfilled. We are no longer under the law but under GRACE! Praise God, Hallelujah & Amen!!
Eddie, you can focus on the object on which Jesus died if you prefer. I choose to focus on the One who died there and what that means to me, a sinner saved by GOD'S GRACE!.
I don't have enough words to describe the foolishness of your question. Presumptious? Arrogant? Futile? Fruitless? Ridiculous? Ludicrous? Blasphemous?
Please do not use any of my comments here to directly or indirectly try to implicate Derrick.
~~~ My impression of Derrick is that of a gentleman and a scholar... a Christian scholar.
~~~He does not say 'scripture says' and then not give the scripture. He does not say 'it has been proven' and not give the proof. He does not say 'evidently' and not give the evidence. He is careful, concise & articulate in his speech. He is not mean-spirited.
~~~A person's character is revealed by what they say & do. You would do well to emulate some of Derrick's characteristics. Think about that, Eddie.
Don't be like "... blind guides, which strain at a gnat & swallow a camel." Matt 23:2
We should all ask the Holy Spirit for spiritual discernment & a Christian attitude.