Jehovah`s Witness/RE...Sister T and Your Questioner...
To the questioner who wrote to Sister T, regarding Mr. Grunbaum and the chat room, I am not sure why exactly you made an address to me personally. But since you did, I assume you are open to my response.
From the very beginning of that chat room, I told Mr. Grunbaum that not much good was going to come from it. I informed him that their own religion teaches not to "push ahead" of the Organization (which I personally believe is nonsense), and that is exactly what you all were doing....setting dates on things that the Bible makes perfectly CLEAR, that we are NOT to set dates on.
I also, in my time reading the comments, noticed a certain attitude developing of..."We have more insight than the rest of our brethren"
. There were also implications that the Holy Spirit was behind revealing this "truth" to the select few, as well as comments made which acknowledged that the local congregational elders might not approve. Now THOSE comments, I did see, although I did not see the comments that caused the falling out.
As sorry as I am for the rift, and the hurt feelings, not one of you had any business in a private chat room, trying to set the date for Armageddon.
That is not to excuse anyone's wrong or deceptive actions, if such did occur...It is simply to say that perhaps you might want to consider shouldering some of the blame yourselves, for having conversations you were not supposed to even be having. You preach completely loyalty to the Organization on this forum, but that was not what was occurring in that chat room, and you both know it.
When I questioned Grunbaum about that several months back, I was told it was "ok", because there was also a GB member and a member of the Writing Dept. in the room, as well.
Now, I realize you people think I am evil incarnate, and that is not really my problem. Its a result of your indoctrination. But if I WERE such a person, I could have had a field day with this. But I actually think its sad, in a way. I could have used what I know, to reveal personal information here. But I am simply not that kind of person.
But bottom line...What went on in that chat room, is not my fault, in any way, shape, or form. I didn't start the room, I didn't participate, and I certainly didn't cause the "witch hunt" that has resulted from it. I have simply allowed the other members to post their side of the story. That is fair, and is the RIGHT thing to do.
My response is as follows:
First off, just for the record, there seems to be some misconception that I am “siding” with Mr. Grunbaum here. Let me just remind you, in case you forgot…I am NOT a JW, therefore, I am not “siding” with anyone. Why I am even brought into you people’s JW chat room squabbles, is a mystery to me. I have not once said that Mr. Grunbaum was, or wasn’t, guilty of anything. I DID say that nobody deserves to be slandered by an anonymous coward like DW, who himself wouldn’t tell his OWN name to his own brethren inside a “family” chat room, but presumed to investigate the identities of everyone else. I also believed it was fair and right to allow Sal and Mr. Grunbaum the opportunity to give THEIR side of things. I don’t believe you will find in my comments, anywhere that I stated he had, or hadn’t, done anything wrong.
Now Mr. Grunbaum, if you are reading this, then you may respond if you wish to. And although there are several others who do the same things you are being accused of, I will say this…If what this person and Sister T are saying is true, that you willfully deceived them into thinking that certain people were not you when they in fact were, then you owe your brethren a sincere apology. Don't stoop to the level of the very men who are accusing you, and make EXCUSES...Just man up, and apologize for your wrong. If that is indeed, what happened.
Now, a few more things need to be said. Believe it or not, I too, have had my own set of questions for Mr. Grunbaum over this ordeal, and have been less than satisfied with his answers. These questions have been via private e-mail. I have asked him point blank if he was certain other people. You can see a few of his responses in what I posted the other day, while some of them I have not posted. I also asked him about his relationship to this “Stewart Williams”, whom I assume, was “Prophet Stewart”. He did not care for my asking, and did not answer. That is simply the fact. He did tell me about having the same name as a half brother, saying they have the same father but different mothers, which I have no reason to doubt, or proof to the contrary. I also asked him point blank if he was the same person as “Sal”, and although he did not directly answer that either, he DID send me a question from NY, within 1 ½ hours of Sal sending me one from Michigan. So from that fact alone, I feel fairly certain that he is NOT Sal, as DW claimed.
Otherwise, I have no explanation for getting 2 questions from 2 different locations, within such a short time frame. If one of you ladies have an explanation that would explain it, then by all means, please share it.
Now, let me say to you, Sister T, in regards to Sal….I was contacted by him again, after my other response to him posted. I wrote you and told you this, immediately after responding to him with a rejection. In his writing, Sister T, he gave your real name and was threatening to give your congregation. He basically had a series of “_ _ _ _ _ _ “, with a couple of the letters filled in, as to your congregation. And he called you by name, as well.
Now, I have known your name and state for well over a year, so that was not news to me. And believe it or not, I have principles, and have no intention of revealing it. Nor was I going to allow Sal to do so through my profile, out of his desire for revenge. So, I rejected his question. I told him he could write me if he felt he had been lied on, and I would allow it to post, but that he was not going to publish people’s personal information through my profile.
I realize that my location has been published by an under-handed JW here, but I try to operate on a higher standard than that….because I’m a Christian.
In addition to Sister T’s information, he also threatened another lady from the chat room, with revealing her information, as well. Basically, he said….“You’re next, _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _”
, whom I will simply refer to here as “TW”. For all I know, you may be the very person who wrote this to Sister T, I don’t know.
But suffice it to say, I did not stoop to that level, and won’t.
Now, back to Grunbaum. You all do not have to convince me, or “set the record straight” about anything regarding him. I have seen the worst of him, and also a human and caring side of him. Of course, Sister T, it wasn’t too very long ago, that NOBODY could tell YOU ANYTHING about him, without being chided as an “opposer” or an “apostate”. A person could point out things about him that just were not right, and they were insulted and berated. Yes, even by YOU, Sister T. Would you like examples? You completely berated Dee for claiming that Grunbaum “isn’t humble”, but do YOU now believe he is humble? You berated ME for answering a question SENT TO ME, about if he displayed the characteristics of a narcissist. I replied that he did, and you and DW went all to pieces. Do you NOW think he is a narcissist, Sister T? Can you now admit that perhaps, the people whom you berated, MIGHT have just been able to see something that you were blinded to, while you proceeded to tell them how terrible they were for even thinking such a thing?
I could point out discrepancy after discrepancy with some of this stories, and I was “gnashing my teeth”, but now that he has apparently done it to you, it’s the horror of horrors.
Now, I could tell you even MORE things that neither you, the person who wrote to you, or DW, even know about. But would it matter? My history with him goes back much further than any of yours, does. So, its not like I totally disagree with everything you now believe, about him being above-board…Its just interesting that anybody who previously tried to tell you that, was automatically an agent of Satan….all for telling you what you NOW believe yourself!
However, in his defense, he invited me to be a partaker in the chat room, which I DID accept the invitation to VIEW the conversations, but chose not to take part in them. I also wish to say that while HE wanted me to view the chat room discussions in the hopes that I would come to the JW religion, several others protested my being there, even as AN OBSERVER. Not because I was making a scene or causing problems (you guys did that all too well yourselves)….but merely because I was READING the discussions. And you were one of those, Sister T, who had so much hate in your heart for me, that you did not even want me READING. You truly believed that Armageddon was coming in 2015, yet you did not want an outsider to be convinced of this, and possibly come to what you view as "the truth". So in all your condemnation of Mr. Grunbaum and his deception, where exactly was YOUR own heart, in the sight of God? God doesn't reveal "truth" to sit on it in a private chat room, especially not where the end of the world is concerned. Seems to me He would want all people to hear it, and repent. That is, if it were really true.
Now, I have to ask….Why would anyone have a problem with a person (Witness, opposer, non-Witness, etc), simply VIEWING the chat room discussion, provided they are respectful and are content to not advance their own ideas, or even COMMENT? If I had a chat room with born again Christians in it, I would allow ANYONE to view it, so that they could hopefully be touched by the Gospel message. I realize that a few “judges” here have decided to do God’s job for Him, and determine who can and cannot be saved. Me, I believe that is in God’s hands to decide, and I would never protest a lost person READING Christian discussions in a chat room, as long as they didn’t disrupt the harmony of the room.
And not one of you can say that I did that, at ANY time.
But here’s the thing. I followed the discussions almost DAILY, for a good while. But back in August, I was in Florida for a week, and didn’t get to read any of it. When I got home, I was busy getting caught up on things, and going back to work, so it was probably 3-4 weeks, before I viewed the chat discussion again. When I did go back in there, hoping to go back to where I had left off and get caught back up, there had been VERY LITTLE discussion in the time that I wasn’t viewing. Or if there had been discussion, it had mostly been removed. Thinking back now, it seems like I wasn't allowed to go back and re-read the previous pages. But of what was left, there WERE some statements which made me realize that there had been a lot of dissention, and that some sort of upheaval had taken place.
I asked Grunbaum about what had happened, and he didn’t want to tell me. I just figured it was out of embarrassment that JW’s weren’t getting along, and he didn’t want me to know that, so I didn‘t press the issue much further.
But let me say this…Long BEFORE the rift occurred, I was seeing statements being made, that showed me just how out of hand that room was getting. Even as an OUTSIDER, I was shocked at how much “pushing ahead” was going on. I even wrote to Grunbaum about it, and if you will recall, he made a statement in the room, that the comment had been made that you all were “pushing ahead” of the Organization. That person who had made the statement to him, was me.
Now again, bear in mind that I’m not even a Witness, so I don’t buy into the notion of “waiting on the Organization”, because if the Bible teaches something, it doesn’t MATTER if the Organization does or not….We are supposed to walk in the light of God’s Word, not in lock-step conformity to an Organization.
But still, I was surprised to see the level of “pushing ahead” that was occurring. But it was all justified by claiming that “We have a member of the GB, and a member of the Writing Dept., in this room, and they are on-board.”
I even described it as a “cult within a cult”.
By the way, and this is important...Can ANYONE who was in that room, confirm or deny that a Governing Body member was in on the discussions? I was told there was, and yet DW claims that Grunbaum fabricated the name of a GB member. This would be one very easy way of getting to the bottom of this, in case it hasn't occurred to anyone. Think about it.
So, I simply want to know 2 things, and either of you kind ladies can answer this….
Do you STILL believe that you know things that “8 million other JWs don’t know”?
And should we still be looking for the Great Tribulation to begin on April 3rd, 2015, at 11:00 a.m.? Or was it a false alarm?
Not trying to be smart or anything, but do you now see why you had no business involved in something like this, to begin with??
Now, here is what I find interesting….Each time I point out lies told by fellow JWs, you excuse it, Sister T. Even when the lie is right there in print, fully documented, and indisputable. You even go so far as to say that the one lying repeatedly, is “on Jehovah’s side”
But when the same exact thing happens TO YOU, then you scream bloody murder. That’s just a fact.
You talk about how wrong it was for him to lie/mislead his own spiritual “brothers” and “sisters”. I get that part, I really do. I know it must hurt, as I have had it happen to me, as well. So, I’m not being unsympathetic when I say this.
But it is NO more right to lie about someone one the outside, either! It doesn’t matter if they are in a forum you don’t think they should be in, nor does it matter if they are a Witness, or a non-Witness….Its STILL a lie, if its untrue, and spoken with the intent to slander or deceive. And you, Sister T, have gone along with the very same conduct that you have now become a victim of, and you think its just terrible. And it is….but its just as terrible when its done to someone else, but you don’t seem bothered by it then.
You criticize Grunbaum for using multiple aliases, and pretending that they were different people? Good grief! Rando has been doing the same exact thing in this forum for years, and you think its perfectly fine! Just last week, he wrote himself, claiming to be “Robert, the Southern Baptist”, and you said nothing. You believe this is perfectly acceptable?
Sister T, I honestly don’t know how you can make the following statements with a straight face. I really don’t.
“Honesty is a very important part of our brotherhood and we would not want to grieve Jehovah's holy spirit by being deceitful:”
REALLY, Sister T? Does this only apply when someone is lying to another JW? Isn’t His Spirit grieved when a supposed Christian lies AT ALL?
“We certainly should not be devious or deliberately try to mislead our fellow worshippers, for that is the same as lying to them. Any who were to persist in such a course would end up having no relationship with God.
Prov. 3:32 "For Jehovah detests a devious person, But His close friendship is with the upright"
That Scripture is not just referring to lying to a “fellow worshipper”, Sister T. It is a general reference to lying, in general. It applies to ALL types of lying. Like the passage you quote from Galatians 6:10, which makes an application to those of “the household of faith”, it also specifies “to ALL men”. I don’t believe there is a license here to lie about those on the outside, either.
“I agree true brothers would never deceive their family in such a way and not only that for some to side with that deception and revert to uncontrollable rages and non stop rants makes you wonder what is really going on. Are we to follow deceptive men or Jesus Christ? Are we to get hostile with anger and abusive speech with one another?”
This is one of the most astounding statements from you, Sister T. And I agree with everything you just said. But how can you type it, when you yourself have “sided” with those who are lying? I know, I know…You think its okay to lie about opposers, but not to each other. Or maybe you say you don't think its okay, but you have seen it happen time and time again, and you say nothing, except in defense of the ones doing it. So, what it really comes down to, is that its not really about being honest…but rather, its about who is loyal to the Organization and other fellow Witnesses.
I assume by “uncontrollable rages”, you are referring to Mr. Drake, due to your comments to me about him. Well, I never saw those outbursts from him, but that is not to say they didn’t occur. As I said, I wasn’t viewing for a period of several weeks, so it is possible those “rages” occurred then. Also, if you recall, it later became a E-MAIL chat, to which I was no longer invited to view. So why you implied to me earlier that I might "have seen his angry statements", is a mystery. How could I, unless they occurred while I was still able to see the chat room? If they occurred after that, there is no way I COULD have seen them.
Does Mr. David Drake DeLaurentos have a bad temper? I don’t know. Maybe, maybe not. Nobody is perfect, not even you. You have a tendency to get carried away, yourself. But I will tell you this….Whatever anger issues he may or may not have, that does NOT mean that he is not a “genuine” JW. In fact, I believe his congregation was verified, was it not? I personally have been treated with utmost respect by him, and I have seen him treat his questioners with respect, with a few possible exceptions.
Futhermore, I saw David’s comment which I felt warranted posting, and his expression of extreme heart-break and remorse, over the “reproach” that he felt had come to Jehovah’s name in all of this. I am YET to see Rando, DW, or YOU, express even an ounce of regret, for the way His name is reproached by JWs who post lies in this forum each and every day. When DW posts lies about what I believe and teach, He is bringing shame and reproach on the name of the God he claims to serve. When Rando continues posting his already-refuted lies, he is doing the same. And I have not seen the first sign of regret, remorse, or contrition.
I think that just because someone calls you “Little Sister”, that doesn’t excuse them from upholding Christian HONESTY, nor does it give them a free pass to reproach the name of Jehovah, by lying and slander.
But you will never get me to believe that Mr. Drake DeLaurentos, was not a sincere JW. He’s 1,000 TIMES the example of a Christian, that DW and Rando ever thought about being.
And DW has no right thinking he can decide who is “genuine”, based on who left the room with him, or which position they took on who was in the right or the wrong. And my recommendation of Mr. Drake DeLaurentos as a qualified JW to answer questions in this forum about his faith, is based on what I have seen from him in THIS forum, not what you say went on in a chat room. I’m not saying you are right or wrong, as to him being mean in the chat room. If he was, he was wrong. I have seen him be short a time or two in this forum, as I have, and as you have. I have also seen him apologize each time. I know he has several health issues, so I can cut him some slack. I remember battling non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma and taking treatments for 6 months at Cancer Treatment Centers of America, in Zion, Illinois, as well as a bone marrow transplant at Duke University, and I know the effect those drugs had on my emotions. I said things to my wife, and those around me, that I am truly ashamed of. Not excusing anything…but sometimes, depression over a situation can get the best of a person. That doesn’t mean they’re a “fake”, or their heart isn’t pure.
And I will say this…Although he may not have been the brightest person I have ever conversed with, I think DW gave Eddie G a VERY uncalled-for, slap in the face. There is NO question that Eddie is a real JW…none. So, now DW gets to set himself up as everyone’s judge, and you just go right along with it, while telling us that you don’t “condone any type of dishonesty”, and “won’t go along with it”?
“As you, I am a follower of Jesus, he is my Leader, and I will not knowingly be apart of any deceptions and I will not condone it either.”
That all sounds great. Except, that you HAVE been a part of it, and you have condoned it. The one part of that quote that might excuse you to a degree, is the word “knowingly”. I think it is just possible that you ASSUME DW and Rando would not lie, so you believe all the nonsense they post.
I really feel compassion for you, Sister T. I have previously stated that you will lie, and go along with lies. Perhaps you are doing that, or perhaps you are just gullible, and believe what you shouldn’t. I just don’t get the sense that you are wicked in your heart, like the ones you support. I think you want to believe the best, and because of taking that a little too far, you have been party to some things that you should not be condoning.
But at any rate, it is a serious thing to say that someone who lies, and does it repeatedly, is “on Jehovah’s side”
, and then turn around and tell the world how Jehovah is a God of TRUTH, and how you will not condone any type of deception.
You have to realize how this appears to those reading the happenings here every day, and then seeing you say what you did.
I admit I was sort of surprised by some of the statements of the person who sent the question to Sister T. Are you now saying that Prince was NOT actually in the chat room at all? That this was also Mr. Williams?
Your questioner wrote: “And then when confronted, all he could do was attack.”
Yeah, and there are a couple of others here who do the same identical thing. Why is it any worse when Grunbaum did it?
But again, I asked several things to Mr. Grunbaum myself in private e-mails. And I cannot say he “attacked” me, nor can I say that my questions were answered satisfactorily, either. I will leave it at that.
What I CAN say for certain, is that DW’s implication that Grunbaum and me might be the same person, was downright ridiculous, and can EASILY be disproven. In spite of that, DW has not offered the first sign of a retraction for that comment.
Your questioner wrote: “So Derrick (I am addressing this statement to you because I know that you will read this).......…
I am not sure where you are getting your information but I was there from the beginning. I saw EVERY email; I lived coming to know who I thought was a brother only to find that he was a fraud. It seems to me that you are on a site where you couldn’t POSSIBLY help anyone to understand what being a Jehovah’s Witness is all about simply because you are on the outside. Why are you here?? What really is the point? If you are a Christian (and you say that you are), why don’t you go to a Christian site and champion that? Why confuse people that come here for JW fact?? Please do not answer that as I already know from being a reader on this site what your purpose is.”
I’m going to answer it, Ma’am. First off, where am I getting my information? From the very source that I SHOULD be getting it…from the person who is being talked about. And from you, as well. Don’t you think its fair that he should be aware of what is being said, and at least give his side if he chooses, for the readers to make up their own mind? I do. I think that is fair, and it is SCRIPTURAL, most importantly.
Again…it is not really any skin off my nose either way, as to what did or didn’t happen. I am not saying that what you are sharing is wrong, either. Like I said, I have known for years that he can use some deceptive means of operation. Take “Sal”, for instance. While I personally don’t believe he IS Sal, I do believe that they know one another, and have for a long time. In a debate that I had with him YEARS ago, he was getting pummeled. People were even writing in, saying that he was. All of a sudden, “Harry” shows up, does everything he can to keep the debates going, and then proclaims that he has “seen the light” and is going to begin studying with Jehovah’s Witnesses. Then, several years later, we debate again, and once again, he quits the debate because he is getting hammered, and “Sal” shows up….The SAME exact thing…Keeps the debates stirred up, and then claims to have “seen the light”, and is going to start studying. It doesn’t take a rocked scientist to figure it out, especially when I went back and read BOTH “Harry’s” and “Sal’s” comments, and found identical expressions in them.
So, you really aren’t telling me anything new. But even with that being the case, I’m just not sure this one is so cut and dry. Because if it were, it seems that the other “genuine” JWs would not side with him. I’m sorry, but there is nothing to suggest that Drake and Eddie, were not “genuine”…except that they apparently didn’t just swoon all over DW, and follow his lead. I mean, who in their right mind would? DW is every bit the liar that you say Grunbaum is. There is really no difference, except that one apparently did it to you, and DW does it to non-Witnesses.
As for why I’m here, that has been answered many, many times. I never once saw any of you complain when a fellow JW, Brenda Martin, spent years on both this site, AND also the Allexperts category of "Protestantism", while claiming in her profile that she was a FORMER Protestant. Never heard one single JW say a word about that.
And no, you and Sister T do NOT know why. You have your own opinions, which you are certainly entitled to. But I am on JW site, because that is my background, and my heart’s burden….to bring the Gospel to JWs, and help equip Christians in how to answer them. Its in my profile…nothing hidden. Its all on the table. And you are both wrong…I am not a “Critic”. I am a Christian, who is not going to spin everything for the Watchtower. If their doctrine lines up with the Bible in a given area, then great. If not, then I’m not going to sugar coat it.
But as Sister T just ADMITTED to me in a private response, this is NOT an “apostate site”…it’s a PUBLIC site, with many various categories. That answers your question right there…this is not a JW site…period. Allexperts makes the rules, not me, not DW, not Rando, not Sister T, and not you. I have as much right to be here as anyone else does, and MORE right than the ones who lie. My answers are accurate and honest, and if I make a mistake, you can bring it to my attention. Unlike the 2 lying JW experts here, I am not above making a retraction or a correction.
Worry about the ones who are here disgracing the name of your God, if you want to worry about something, instead of siding with and supporting them. Lying is always wrong, regardless of who is being lied about.
I wish you well, and I am sorry for the hurt and pain this has obviously caused both of you. My prayer for you both, is that you come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, and have the full promise of eternal life, as I have.