Jehovah`s Witness/Matt 24:3,4 & Rev 12:10
Hello Bro DW,
So that people will know what real JW's teach, please show why Matt 24:3,4, and Rev. 12:10 does not disprove 1914 as being when Jesus began to reign as King of God's Kingdom.
When a person does not have scriptural understanding, their renderings become all twisted up and confusing. Especially when ones are bent on trying to prove us wrong and can not succeed. They start inventing things that don't really make much sense.
Like Matt 24:3,4 Jesus' apostles ask him what will be the SIGN of his presence and the conclusion of the system of things.
The things that Jesus foretold would take place during his reign is what is being spoken of here. The BEGINNING of pangs of distress will culminate with the end coming, as Matt 24:14 says, the good news will be preached and then the end will come.
JW's do not teach that The BEGINNING of pangs of distress will culminate in the Kingdom being brought forth. As it would be reigning during this time of distress. Before Satan was cast down to the earth, Jesus began to rule, he did not begin ruling as King as soon as he went to heaven back in 33 CE.
The Bible tells us that God told Jesus to sit at his right and wait. It was prophesied that he would wait in Ps 110:1,2 and it was spoken of again that he was still waiting during Paul's time at:
Heb. 10:12,13 "But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on waiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet."
So Matt 24:3,4 does not disprove 1914 in any way what so ever, twisting around words to try to make us wrong will backfire because we let scripture interpret scripture.
Rev. 12:10 speaks about Satan and the fact that after the Kingdom was established in heaven, Jesus threw Satan and his demons out and Satan the accuser of their brothers was cast down, so this shows that the kingdom was in power when this happened, as it speaks of that event and what happened.
we read in part: "Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ,"
After Jesus began to reign as King, the authority that was given to him was put into action. The Kingdom of God holds out salvation for any who are subjects of that Kingdom. And now that that Kingdom is ruling in heaven, Jesus uses his authority to go subduing in the midst of his enemies, and the first thing is getting rid of Satan and casting him out of heaven for good. It doesn't stop there, Jesus will also use his authority to rid the earth of Satan as well, but that hasn't happened yet, the first phase has, Satan is out of heaven, that's why he's come down with great anger, he knows his time is short (Rev. 12:12).
So again, Rev. 12:10 does not disprove 1914 as the time when Jesus began to reign as King of God's Kingdom.
God's Kingdom is to take action regarding the affairs on earth, and that's why before he was King and was a man on earth he told his disciples to pray that God's kingdom come. (Matt 6:10) Once that Kingdom began ruling, it would soon put an end to Satan's rule, and starting with the heavens, first, tossing Satan out as he was able to go up to heaven and down to earth at will (compare Job 1:6,7)
Well once Jesus began ruling that stopped, he can't go back up there anymore, Jesus threw him out when he began ruling and to say that the only way that the Kingdom could begin to rule was when Satan was kicked out doesn't make any sense. Jehovah's kingdom is not depended upon Satan. Jehovah had a set time when the King would begin to rule, just like he had a set time when the Messiah would appear. God is not a God of disorder (1 Cor 14:33) And Satan does not have authority over Jehovah's appointed times.
The earth did not begin when Jesus started to rule as King. Jehovah created the heaven and earth (Rev. 4:11).
If Adam would never have sinned at all, Jesus would never have been sent to this earth as a ransom because we would not have needed one, and he would not have been King of God's Kingdom. God would be the only one over his Kingdom. But because of what Jesus did for us, Jehovah has rewarded him by making him King of His Kingdom.
Phil 2:8-10 "More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
Any person with some history knowledge knows that a King does not get rid of unsavory ones in his Kingdom or government UNTIL AFTER he has begun to reign as King.
That's like a King who is ruling and his son will rule once he dies. So the son has to wait. If the King has people who the son does not want around, the son cannot dismiss those people UNTIL he has begun ruling as the King. Until that time, the son has to wait.
We read in the Bible how the different Kings ruled the people in different ways, some stuck to God, and some did not. The ones who stuck to God, once they began ruling as King, they pulled down the false gods and sacred poles and pillars. Did they throw out the idols before they were ruling as King? No, but only after they began ruling did they cleanse their kingdom of unsavory things. To say otherwise is unscriptural and incorrect.
Take for example King Hezekiah, first his father King Ahaz,was ruling and he worshiped false gods and idols
2 Chron 28:24,25 "Furthermore, A′haz collected the utensils of the house of the true God; he then cut to pieces the utensils of the house of the true God, closed the doors of the house of Jehovah, and made altars for himself in every corner of Jerusalem. 25 And in all the cities of Judah, he made high places for making sacrificial smoke to other gods, and he offended Jehovah the God of his forefathers."
But once Hezekiah became King, he got rid of the idols, not before he became King, but after:
2 Chron. 28:27 "Then A′haz was laid to rest with his forefathers, and they buried him in the city, in Jerusalem, for they did not bring him into the burial places of the kings of Israel. And his son Hez·e·ki′ah became king in his place."
2 Chron. 29:1-3 "Hez·e·ki′ah became king at the age of 25, and he reigned for 29 years in Jerusalem....2 He kept doing what was right in Jehovah’s eyes, just as David his forefather had done. 3 In the first year of his reign, in the first month, he opened the doors of the house of Jehovah and repaired them."
2 Chron. 30:7,14 "Do not be like your forefathers and your brothers who acted unfaithfully toward Jehovah the God of their forefathers, so that he made them an object of horror, just as you are seeing. 14 They rose up and removed the altars that were in Jerusalem, and they removed all the incense altars and threw them into the Kid′ron Valley."
So as we can see the King took action only after he had become the King. Not before...and Jesus once he began to rule as King he took action and removed Satan from the heavens. Next will come the earth....
Bro DW, can you shed more light on this, please.
Thanks for writing.
I see you are referring to Pearl Doxsey's answer on 1914 to a questioner and her "proof texts" for disbelieving it so let me concentrate on the "proof texts" for now below are the arguments she uses which I will show are at the worst blatantly evil and at the very least total foolishness and lack spiritual understanding.
Let's set up a foundation firstly 1914 Is important as Christian's to understand and what must be understood is the Bible tells us not everyone will understand or even recognize it.
9 "Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.+ 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined.+ And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand"
So comments like this really don't cut any ice
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<"I don't know where you heard that I say that Satan was hurled to the earth in 1914, because I know that this is a lying doctrine">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just the same as if I said "I know it to be a true doctrine" it doesn't work just as a statement.
So then Pearl correctly tries to use logic with scripture to back up her statement. Only problem is if you use logic with scripture your argument has to be logical. This is Pearls comment.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<They say that the labor pains we see occurring in the world around us, are proof that the kingdom was born in 1914. (War,famine,earthquakes,etc.)
Now stop there and think about this....
What happens first?....
Labor pains...or birth???
How can the kingdom be born at the start of labor pains, and not after???
Once again, "Jehovah's Witnesses" switch the order.
Why are they making the arrival of the kingdom pre-mature?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So seeing as we're talking about labour pains let's use the metaphor of women
So think about it why does the labour pains have to come before the birth on two SEPERATE women?? One's an Earthly Woman and one's Heavenly. Two separate women have two separate labour pains and two separate births. According to Pearls argument everyone on the Earth is exactly the same age, all women get pregnant at the same time and all give birth at the same time. Nonsense!!!
It's the birth of the heavenly woman that causes the labour pains for the earthly woman. The labour pains are for the "Earthly Woman" not the Heavenly one!!
7 "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,+ and there will be food shortages+ and earthquakes in one place after another.+ 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress"
Rev 12:12 "Woe for the earth and for the sea,+ because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time"
When does this event happen, these labour pains?? Before or after the birth of the Kingdom??
Rev 12: 13 Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth,+ it persecuted the woman+ WHO GAVE BIRTH to the male child"
How about this comment
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< at Rev.12:10.
"Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, because the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down ."
So tell me....Which occurs first? Is it the kingdom...or the "casting down"?
"NOW...the kingdom...BECAUSE accuser HAS BEEN cast down".
We are clearly being told that the kingdom begins, because Satan is cast down first.
"Jehovah's Witnesses" teach, that "the first action Christ takes as king of the new kingdom, is to cast Satan down". Rev.12:10 proves that this is error>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The problem is two things here.
1)Can you really argue that Satan being in heaven prevented Jesus being crowned King?? How can you say that the basis of Jesus kingship is Satan being hurled to Earth?? It's nonsense!! This is what the scriptures say is the basis of Jesus Kingship
9 “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth"
Jesus sacrifice was what allows him to become King, not the fact Satan was removed from Heaven.
2)We are not "clearly being told that the kingdom begins, because Satan is cast down first"
This is what we are told
"“Now have come TO PASS the salvation+ and the power and the Kingdom of our God+ and the authority of his Christ"
Or in other words "now we have the proof" of the power and authority of the Kingdom of God. It was the proof or demonstration of Jesus authority as King. Not his coronation.
So once again a epic failure from the desperate non-witnesses on the board.
I have no idea why they don't just give up.
P.S. going on vacation for a few day's.