Jehovah`s Witness/Some more about Rev Darryl Murphy


Hello Brenton may I ask you to give your point of view on something else that the Rev. Murphy said in his letter to you.   

From Rev Darryl Murphy

You gave the definition   of the word "dia" used at John..which translated has the meaning in its use of "by means of". Now lets look at Colossians 1:16 first from the KJV:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

In this passage of scripture, the word "by" comes from the greek word "en". Here it has the meaning "in, by, with etc". It can be rightfully said that "In Christ" "By Christ" "With Christ" all things were made.

NWT renders:   16   because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,+ whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him+ and for him. 17   Also, he is before all other things,+ and by means of him all other things were made to exist,

Without writing this out in Greek please allow me to show the confusion of this passage:

1. What other things?

According to scripture, ALL things were created "Through" and "BY" him. so what other things is this passage referring too?

2. He is the First in creation, so what "other things" is He before?

There is a mistranslation of the word "Pas" that is creating this tangled web. It is viewed in the community of scholars that this rendering is theologically and doctrinally biased towards the JW belief that Jesus was created. I will not address that issue, but will say there is no support in the Greek for such a translation, nor does it harmonize with scripture.

Thank you in advance

Hello Henry

Thank you for this.   Before I answer I want to again emphasize that tere is a need to see what ALL the scriptures say not just a few verses and also the need to have an English translation of the Greek that correctly reflects the full ideas as to what is being said by the original authors.

To answer you I find I have to delve into the gramma of the verses somewhat in order to show the true meaning, so I hope I can do it in an understandable way. First I want to present the KJV and the 1984 NWT rendering of Colossians 1:15-17

Col. 1:15-17 15  “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16  For by [1] him [a] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by [2] him [b], and for him: 17  And he is before all things, and by [3] him  [c] all things consist.” KJV

Col. 1:15-17 15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16  because by means [1] of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through ]2] him and for him. 17  Also, he is before all [other] things and by means [3] of him all [other] things were made to exist, (NWT)

Words marked as [1] and [3] are the Greek word “en” .  The basic meaning is as Mr Murphy says “"in, by, with etc"”  Looking at Strongs Greek Lexicon it can have extended meanings as well Strongs says

 a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.:  —  about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+all means), for (  …   sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, [open-]ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-]ly, X that, X there(-in, on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.

End quote

In the KJV the word  “en” is used more that 2000 times and  is rendered in the following  ways (the numbers show the amount of times the word appears with that meaning)

in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 265; 2801

Now Thayers Greek lexicon is much more involved that Strongs in in part it says of the word en when it relates to something being accomplished  especially when connected with a  dative  expression...  “ is its use  of the instrument or means by or with which anything is accomplished,  owing to the influence of the Hebrew preposition much more common in the sacred writers than in secular authors.   (cf. Winer's Grammar, sec. 48, a. 3 d.; Buttmann, 181 (157) and 329 (283f), where we say with, by means of, by (through); a. in phrases in which the primitive force of the preposition is discernible”... (Italics original)

As Colossians is discussing the means of something being done the wording of the NWT “by means” is in full harmony with the grammatical make up of the verse.  The dative expression is the Greek word  rendered him (auto words “him” [a] and [c]) after the word “by” or  “by means of “  According ti the greek gramma the Dative “is  the case of personal interest, pointing out the person to or  for whom something is done.” (Italics original)

The word numbered [2]  in the Texts above is the Greek word “dia” which means according to Strongs “a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through” which something is done.  Thayers Greek Lexicon says when used with a generative it means through. The generative in this case is the word him (auton word “him” [b] NOTE the difference between the previous him “auto”)

So the NWT is more accurate in its rendering of Col 1:15-17 and conveys the original idea more clearly into English. It was “by means” of Jesus and “through” Jesus that all things were made. Showing more clearly that  that Jesus was the agency by which all things were made.

Mr Murphy goes on to say

Without writing this out in Greek please allow me to show the confusion of this passage:

1. What other things?

According to scripture, ALL things were created "Through" and "BY" him. so what other things is this passage referring too?

2. He is the First in creation, so what "other things" is He before?</b?

End quote

I do not completely follow exactly what was on his mind here but I will respond to that in the way I understand.

I will start with how I see this

1. What other things .... is he before?    Jesus is before all the other things in creation no matter if they are as Verse 16 says in heaven and on earth.   I understand Mr Murphy  to be saying that the NWT rendering of the word “Pas” is a mistranslation and that it created a tangled web.

The Greek word “pas” is generally rendered into English as “all”  If you gao back to the quotes above you will see that the 1984 NWT has the word other in brackets after all “  all [other] things” I gather  he is saying that the addition of [other] is wrong..  The KJV and and most of my 25 English versions say “all things” (some say everything).  Now the interesting thing here is the word “things” is not in the original Greek texts that I have. So to make sense in English and because the construction suggests it the majority of Bible have added the word things.

“Pas” has a wide range of uses that include  -  all the things, all kinds,  always, any,  anyone , anything  entire,  every form, no, whatsoever,  whosoever...  (see the end of this answer for more dtails)

But what about the word other that the NWT adds That is added to clarify the context and to give the correct rendering into English, and is not based on theology.  

Back in verse 15 we are told that Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature” (KJV)  Most people argue that the Greek word rendered first born in this instance does not actually mean firstborn. WHY? Because the Greek word “prototokos” can have a figurative use as well.  The equivalent Hebrew word rendered firstborn “bekowr” can refer to a pre-eminant one in the family.  For example in Psalms 89:27 King David is called the firstborn.  However David was not the first born he was the youngest, do the term first born can mean the pre-eminent one.

Is that what is meant in Col 1:15 when it says Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature”?  Well it may mean that, but the context, not only of “Colossians”   but also for Rev 3:14  where we are told that Jesus of “the beginning of the creation of God” (JKV) shows it refers to Jesus actually being the first born. Why can I be sue if that?  IN every case where the word firstborn is used in the Bible the one refereed as firstborn  whether it be man or beast is,  now note this as it is vitally important,  is ALWAYS A PART OF THE GROUP that he was the firstborn or pre-eminent one of. So as the firstbirn and pre-eminent one OF the group called CREATION , Jesus is before all other things.

The last point of argument I will use is this.  The text says of Jesus that “For by him were all [things] created, that are in heaven , and that are in earth, visible and invisible ”  (JKV)

(The word [things] is not in the Greek but added for clarity)

So we are told  “all ... in heaven... and invisible”   were created “by means of” and “through” him.  

Even trinitarians acknowledge that Jesus is a separate and distinct  person to God (the Father). Now reason for a moment.  If Jesus is said to have created “all things” in heaven, would not the word “all” include the Father?  That would mean Jesus is the creator of the Father.  Trinitarians believe Jesus has existed for as long as the Father.  We believe The Father (Jehovah) was in existence before Jesus and that Jesus was the first of his creative acts.  (The first born of creation)

The addition OF the word [other] in the NWT takes away that confusion and contradiction that is caused by the trinity idea that both the Father and Jesus have always been.

Our understanding is First there was God (Jehovah).  He creates Jesus.  Jesus is then used as Gods master worker (Proverbs 8) as the agency through which (by means of) all the other things in heaven (the angels – stars – planets) and the earth were then made.  Jehovah being the architect Jesus being the worker.

From one of my electronic Greek Lexicons the uses  of the word “Pas” plus clarifiction of the “all”

3956  pas

including all the forms of declension;

-all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2, any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243

1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types

Spurgeon’s clarification on the meaning of “all.”

18. Now, beloved, when you hear anyone laughing or jeering at a limited atonement, you may tell him this. General atonement is like a great wide bridge with only half an arch; it does not go across the stream: it only professes to go half way; it does not secure the salvation of anyone. Now, I had rather put my foot upon a bridge as narrow as Hungerford, which went all the way across, than on a bridge that was as wide as the world, if it did not go all the way across the stream. I am told it is my duty to say that all men have been redeemed, and I am told that there is a Scriptural warrant for it  —  “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” Now, that looks like a very, very great argument indeed on the other side of the question. For instance, look here. “The whole world is gone after him.” Did all the world go after Christ? “Then all Judea went and were baptized by him in Jordan.” Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? “You are of God, little children,” and “the whole world lies in the wicked one.” Does “the whole world” there mean everyone? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were “of God?” The words “world” and “all” are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that “all” means all people, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts  —  some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile.

C. H. Spurgeon Sermon No. 181, New Park Pulpit, Vol. 4, p. 135,136.
end quote

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Brenton Hepburn


I AM one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and I am always learning. I am NOT an expert in the full sense of the word but I can answer questions on the reliability of the NWT - the so called mind control problems-so called prophecies - how being a JW affects the individual and relatives and general practices and history of Jehovah’s Witnesses. >>WARNING<< Please be aware that there are people here who ARE NOT practicing JWs. By all means ask these ones questions. Depending on the question you will get an honest answer, but, generally the answer you get, will mislead you as to what we believe, often because, they do not give ALL the relevant details. These ones will, have an agenda against JWs., and will at times give answers that are not correct in regard to JW teachings and practices. If you are after a answer from one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, please read some of the answers that the various experts have published before choosing someone. If you want to ask one of the NON JWs a question, that is fine, BUT if you want a balancing view after asking one of the NON JWs, ask a JW the same question. PLEASE ALSO NOTE: There(have been)and are, some "experts" here who are NOT always the most courteous and polite, at times are actually quite rude, that applies to both JW's and non JW's and their answers may offend, especially when they get personal and attack the character of the person and not the message. Unfortunately some here that have done that. So it IS IMPORTANT to chose an "expert" that YOU feel will best suit YOU by reading some of their past answers . . . . .


I have been a publisher since 1964. When I first went on the internet I found a lot of negative information dealing with Jehovah’s Witnesses covering prophecy, mind control and what many said was a very bad translation of the Bible known as the NWT. It shook my faith. After may hours researching these topics I could see why some felt that way, but, I was also able to explain why there were these misleading views. I can now set matters straight for anyone that has negative information about Jehovah’s Witness to show them that such information is at best misleading and at worst dangerous lies.

I have been a student of the Bible for many years, am trying to teach myself Biblical Greek. Was a public tax accountant for many years untill SEP 2009 when I gave it up due to health problems.

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