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Jehovah`s Witness/Why did you block me from continuing if you ened your post with "speak soon"??

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Question
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QUESTION: While I agree with you about Revelation being prophecy, this does not exclude things past. Such as the Tribes of Israel of which the 144K come from. If we use scripture to interpret scripture then we have to draw from Biblical history to understand this future prophecy, no?

So what you are saying is you do not believe that Satan has been cast out of Heaven? It is still a future event according to Rev ch 12?

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You still have not given evidence to 4 Jerusalem's.


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My point here is that based on scripture it is impossible to limit the number of people who belong to the Heavenly Jerusalem. I understand the difference between the spiritual and the literal Jerusalem. One is of Hagar and the other is of Sarah. Those of Sarah will outnumber those of Hagar. The spiritual Jerusalem will consist of a greater number of person's than that of Hagar. Hagar's number was clearly greater that 144,000 as seen in Exodus.

All in all, what I'm not getting is the backing for excluding all but 144k from this Heavenly Jerusalem, when the scriptures declare otherwise.
Answer:    O.K let me ask you a series of questions to see if you can understand the point. Based on scripture

If the tribes of Israel in Revelation are the same as those in literal Israel why is the tribe of Joseph there??

If Revelation was given to John after the birth of Christ as things that hadn't yet took place how can it be referring to the birth of Christ??

If the Jews had remained faithful what hope would the Gentiles have??

With regard the heavenly hope how does that foreshadow the mosaic law??

Why are people going to heaven??

If Adam hadn't sinned where would humans be right now??

Why is Jesus called the foundation cornerstone and of what??

Why is the Jerusalem above called our mother and of who??

Why do all the Jerusalem's have different names and why do they have these names??

O.K that will do for now.

The point I'm trying to make by asking you to answer these questions is this, you can't just make statement's and not back them up.SCripture interprets scripture as you say, however there's a lot more scripture's on this subject that we've even come close to discussing. You need to know exactly WHY you believe a certain thing and not just guess and assume. WHY is the most important question.

I want you to start reasoning in EXACTLY the same way god made us to reason to reach the right conclusion

If you find the scriptural answers to the above questions you will have your basic answer that you can later expand on.

Bear in in mind this scripture. Please don't think I'm saying that you are like this but the point is it is impossible to understand spiritual things without spiritual eyes.

Acts 28:

23"And from morning to evening, he explained the matter to them by bearing thorough witness concerning the Kingdom of God, to persuade them about Jesus+ from both the Law of Moses+ and the Prophets.+ 24 Some began to believe the things he said; others would not believe"

1 Cor 9:

6 "I planted,+ A·pol′los watered,+ but God kept making it grow, 7 so that neither is the one who plants anything nor is the one who waters, but God who makes it grow"

Speak Soon



Here are the answers to your questions in order:

1. The reason why the tribe of Joseph was mentioned in Rev was because the tribe of Joseph was actually made up of the two tribes Ephraim and Manasseh (Joshua 14:4), and there is still descendants of the tribe of Ephraim who God has chosen but cannot fall under the tribe of Ephraim as a whole. Also the reason why Ephraim and Dan were not mentioned were because of their fall to idolatry (1 Kings 12:25-33).

2. This was to tells the story, provide evidence and tell how it relates to what John was writing down. Who is said to rule by the iron scepter? Psalms 2:9.

3. If the Jews remained faithful then there would have been no reason to send Jesus, as God's people would stay Holy. However, God already knew they would not remain faithful, and thus the reason for Jesus.

4. This question needs elaboration

5. People are going to Heaven to serve God and reign on Earth. Rev 5:10

6. If Adam and Eve had not sinned humanity would still be with God in the garden.

7. Jesus is called the cornerstone because the cornerstone is what holds everything together. It is Jesus who holds everything together (Col 1:17).

8. Jerusalem above is called our mother because of a promise, a promise made to Sarah explained in Gal Ch 4, that she and her offspring would outnumber those of the slave woman (Hagar). Just in the same way the Jews called Abraham their Father, Sarah is the mother, the starting point. This is easily explained in Gal ch 4.

9. There are only two Jerusalem's, one literal and one spiritual. There are not four as you say. If you are trying to tell me that the names are different, meaning "heavenly", "Above", "New" and "Ancient" all make them different then you must believe that God, Jehovah, I Am, Almighty, Lord are all different too.

I think this is our last exchange, partly because I really don't think you have an answer nor are you an expert and also because I feel as though you are trying to divert the topic into something other than what I asked in the first place. Aversion is not an answer. You provided no scriptural backing for your answer to any of the points I made.

It is quite telling that when you put me on block.

Good Day Sir.

Answer
I did not block you. You can only follow up twice. Which you have done. If I blocked you how have you managed to write to me again??

Here's the thing, all the questions I gave you link together into one linked scriptural answer.

The way you have answered is you have separated the questions and come up with a hotch potch of ideas that don't even make sense, further you don't appear to be able to reason on simple points. Here's just three examples

<<<<<<<<<1. The reason why the tribe of Joseph was mentioned in Rev was because the tribe of Joseph was actually made up of the two tribes Ephraim and Manasseh (Joshua 14:4), and there is still descendants of the tribe of Ephraim who God has chosen but cannot fall under the tribe of Ephraim as a whole. Also the reason why Ephraim and Dan were not mentioned were because of their fall to idolatry (1 Kings 12:25-33).>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Why is there still a tribe of Mannaseh then?? Further when was the tribe of Joseph actually formed in NATURAL Israel and where is this scriptural backing?? If it is indeed referring to natural Israel you should have easily answered it

<<<<<3. If the Jews remained faithful then there would have been no reason to send Jesus, as God's people would stay Holy. However, God already knew they would not remain faithful, and thus the reason for Jesus.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So there was no need for a sacrifice for sinful mankind??

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<9. There are only two Jerusalem's, one literal and one spiritual. There are not four as you say. If you are trying to tell me that the names are different, meaning "heavenly", "Above", "New" and "Ancient" all make them different then you must believe that God, Jehovah, I Am, Almighty, Lord are all different too.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I asked you WHY , WHY was the question. I never asked you to assume my position on the subject or to make bold statements.

Now one thing I do agree with is that this exchange is over. Apart from anything else I really cannot sit here and teach you about the four Jerusalem's, Spiritual application of scripture and Revelation, when you don't even understand the need and the reason for the ransom of Jesus Christ.

I gave you the answer in my first post the answer is simple yet you don't get it. This stuff seems way to deep for you right now.

You need to start at the basics. Go here.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005169

use the arrow on the left to read the book or alternatively you can apply for a bible study here

https://www.jw.org/en/free-bible-study/

or visit your local hall and ask there

http://www.jw.org/apps/E_FRNsPnPBrTZGT

All the best to you

Take Care

Jehovah`s Witness

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I have many years of experience serving Jehovah . I have known Jehovah a long time and I have known his organization . I have been privileged to see great progress not only in my own personal relationship with my God and Father but within his organization. I am an avid reader of the bible and have been gifted by my Father with the indescribable privilege of being allowed to understand his own word.

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The truth is all about scripture and logic. The two go hand in hand . There is not one bible verse that cannot be understood within the realms of human reasoning. Not one!! Why would it?? The bible is God's message to his creation . His creation who he made to understand things in a specific way. God is not stupid or unwise as to leave as a message then allow us to guess what it means or who he is. 1 Tim 2:3This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth" Notice the expression "accurate knowledge".

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The bible leaves signs of true christianity there are many. Jehovah's witnesses meet every single sign. One sign is the removal of false teachings that permeated the world soon after the apostles died. Jesus foretold this and he also foretold of the restoration of pure worship in the period known as the last days. The days we are currently living in. Jesus was a master of using illustrations he used an illustration to highlight this point Matt 13: "The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse" Why did he speak in illustrations? Matt 13:10So the disciples came and said to him: “Why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” 11In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted" The kingdom of the heavens is full of sacred secrets that Jesus reveals only to his followers. This privilege is open to all who are really willing to submit to God and his Christ in action not just in words. These are the ones God is looking for. Are you really one?? If so I encourage you to let Jehovah's witnesses show you what the Bible really teaches.

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False religion is disgusting to God and to his true worshippers it is likened in the Bible to a harlot Rev 17:"I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication" Whereas the bride of Christ is likened to a virgin Rev 14: 4"These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins" These are both used as spiritual terms here and show the importance of pure and clean worship for God's people.

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