Jehovah`s Witness/New Jerusalem

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QUESTION: Good Day DW,

My question stems from a couple scriptures I was reading on this subject of the New Jerusalem. I understand it is the Holy City that will be without corruption, death, evil. The thing I don't get is that in the Revelation book it states that this city is "composed of 144,000 loyal integrity keepers, resplendent in its holiness and reflecting the very glory of Jehovah." How do this fit with Galatians 4:21-31? In Galatians, Paul is speaking of the two covenants in an allegory between Hagar and Sarah. Those that were of Hagar were born in the ordinary way (Jewish descent) and those born of Sarah were a result of a promise (born by the power of the Spirit). I get this part as there are some who are brought into Jehovah being Gentiles instead of being Jewish.

The part I have trouble with is this: Starting at verse 24 Paul goes into explaining the meaning of each Sarah and Hagar and to which Jerusalem they belong to. Hagar stood for the present city of Jerusalem and Sarah stood for the Jerusalem from above. The Jerusalem from above was free, just like Sarah in the allegory. This is the New Jerusalem spoken of in Revelation chapter 21 which is from above. In Verse 27 (a quote from Isaiah 54:1) it says that the children of the desolate woman (Sarah) will outnumber those of the woman with the husband (Hagar). It goes on in Isaiah to explain that this group will be much greater in number than the children of "Hagar".

So all of that being said, how can the New Jerusalem (Rev chapter 21)consist of only the 144,000 if Sarah's(Jerusalem from above) descendants will out number Hagar's (Earthly Jerusalem)?

ANSWER: Hello mate

Thanks for writing.

Good question and I really commend your scriptural research

Now before we start it's important to understand some basics because with understanding scripture's like this we always need the basic truth's behind them

Here's Gal 4: 26

" But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother"

The Jerusalem above is not new Jerusalem , rather she is the mother of those in new Jerusalem.

She is the heavenly Woman or Jehovah's wife the one who give's birth to the Kingdom.

Rev 12 "And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, 2 and she was pregnant. And she cries out in her pains and in her agony to give birth"

There are four Jerusalem's in the scriptures it's important that you know them.

1)Ancient Jerusalem(Need's no explanation)

2)Heavenly Jerusalem (Jesus and the 144,000)

Heb 12:

22" But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem"

3)New Jerusalem (144,000, the bride of christ)

Rev 21:

2" I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband"

4)The Jerusalem above (who's offspring/seed includes New Jerusalem 144,000)

So your argument is legitimate your just looking at it from the wrong perspective.

The solution is actually quite simple. It's answered in basically knowing the subject of the text.

When Paul is addressing the Galatians here, he is addressing them on the subject of whether being an offspring of Hagar(Natural Jew) or an offspring of Sarah (Jerusalem above) would grant you life in heaven. The answer is ONLY by being an offspring of Sarah(anointed with holy spirit)is the heavenly hope yours. Therefore Sarah's seed outnumbers Hagar's by 144,001 to 0.

Sarah is the only one who produces spirit anointed offspring. Hagar does not!! That's how her seed outnumbers Hagar's

I want you to read some of the build up to the passage you speak of to grasp the point.

GALATIANS

3:

10" For all those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them.” 11 Moreover, that by law no one is declared righteous with God is evident, because “the righteous one will live by reason of faith.” 12 Now the Law does not adhere to faith, but “he that does them shall live by means of them.” 13 Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake"

19 Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one. 21 Is the Law, therefore, against the promises of God? May that never happen! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, righteousness would actually have been by means of law.

23 However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody, looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor.

26 YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise"

You cannot go to heaven without being a "son of God" or his wife(the Jerusalem above/Sarah)

Then Paul say's this.

Gal 4:

21 Tell me, YOU who want to be under law, Do YOU not hear the Law? 22 For example, it is written that Abraham acquired two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; 23 but the one by the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh, the other by the free woman through a promise. 24 These things stand as a symbolic drama; for these [women] mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si′nai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Ha′gar. 25 Now this Ha′gar means Si′nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
27 For it is written: “Be glad, you barren woman who does not give birth; break out and cry aloud, you woman who does not have childbirth pains; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than [those] of her who has the husband.” 28 Now we, brothers, are children belonging to the promise the same as Isaac was. 29 But just as then the one born in the manner of flesh began persecuting the one born in the manner of spirit, so also now. 30 Nevertheless, what does the Scripture say? “Drive out the servant girl and her son, for by no means shall the son of the servant girl be an heir with the son of the free woman.” 31 Wherefore, brothers, we are children, not of a servant girl, but of the free woman"

Then Paul tell's us EXACTLY what he is saying.

5:

2" See! I, Paul, am telling YOU that if YOU become circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to YOU"

Being a natural Jew means nothing, being under the mosaic law means nothing. Being Hagar's offspring mean's nothing. That is the whole subject, the whole context of Paul's words and that's how we gain our understanding of the verses involved.

Sarah's seed outnumbers Hagar's in this way just as Isaiah tells us.

Follow up if you need

Take Care












---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Good Day DW,

I received your reply to my question and thank you for your explanation. This really has not helped me though. It raises more questions than it did in answering. I have done a bit more research on this topic and would like to share with you my findings and see if you can clear up what I may have missed.

As far as the basic truth’s you mentioned:
“The Jerusalem above is not new Jerusalem, rather she is the mother of those in new Jerusalem.
She is the heavenly Woman or Jehovah's wife the one who give's birth to the Kingdom.”
You supported this with a quote from Rev 12:1&2. If you continue through the Chapter in Revelation, we see at 12:5&6 “5 And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days.”
This woman in Revelation chapter 12, I believe to be Israel. Jesus was the child who would rule with an iron rod (Psalm 2:9). Jesus was a Jew and his lineage was from Israel (Matt 1:1-16). Satan tried to devour Jesus by means of King Herod (Matt 2:3-8; 16). Does this all make sense?
With this I fail to see the New Jerusalem giving birth to a kingdom, in fact there is no scripture that I found to ties this woman to the New Jerusalem. Israel being the lineage to which Jesus came is what I find here.

Four Jerusalem’s
I just do not find that in the Bible nor in your reply. I see two, the ancient Jerusalem (Which we both agree with) and the Jerusalem from above. Based on what you have provided for the other three, they consist of the same group or make up if you will, the 144,000. In one you said that it is Jesus and the 144,000, the next you said it is 144,000/the Bride of Christ, and the 3rd you said was offspring that includes the 144,000. The three you stated were the Heavenly Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem and then the Jerusalem from above.
You wrote:
“The solution is actually quite simple. It's answered in basically knowing the subject of the text.

When Paul is addressing the Galatians here, he is addressing them on the subject of whether being an offspring of Hagar(Natural Jew) or an offspring of Sarah (Jerusalem above) would grant you life in heaven. The answer is ONLY by being an offspring of Sarah(anointed with holy spirit)is the heavenly hope yours. Therefore Sarah's seed outnumbers Hagar's by 144,001 to 0.”

I find different figures for Sarah and Hagar based on the context of Galatians. At Gal 4:24 “24 These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si′nai, which bears children for slavery and which is Ha′gar.”
If we look to see the history of this covenant at Mount Si’nai it takes us back to Exodus 19:1-5 and the Ten Commandments at Exodus 20. This took place three months after the Israelites left Egypt (Exodus 19:1) and at that time there were 600,000 men not including the women and children (Exodus 12:31-38). These were men of 20 years of age and older (Exodus 38:26). So rightfully there were close to 1.2 million people (women and children included) in all if not more. This is the covenant represented in Gal 4:25 as I understand it.
After establishing a number (could be more) in the covenant of Hagar, we know that from the scripture in Isaiah 54:1 that the other covenant mentioned in Gal 4 (Sarah)  is to outnumber the first. This puts a problem with the 144,000 being the Heavenly Jerusalem/Jerusalem from above/New Jerusalem as there were more than 600,000 in the covenant with Hagar.

You said:
“I want you to read some of the build up to the passage you speak of to grasp the point.”
Gal 3:10-29, omitting verses 14-18 and 22. Why did you omit these?
“You cannot go to heaven without being a "son of God" or his wife(the Jerusalem above/Sarah)”
I agree, but you left out how we can get that by means of Gal 3:14 “This was so that the blessing of Abraham would come to the nations by means of Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promised spirit through our faith.” And Gal 3:22 “But the Scripture handed all things over to the custody of  sin, so that the promise resulting from faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those exercising faith.”

So it is with faith in Christ Jesus we can obtain the blessing of the new covenant.

I agree with this statement you said
“Being a natural Jew means nothing, being under the mosaic law means nothing. Being Hagar's offspring mean's nothing. That is the whole subject, the whole context of Paul's words and that's how we gain our understanding of the verses involved.

Sarah's seed outnumbers Hagar's in this way just as Isaiah tells us.”
So really I do not see how 144,000 can make up this Heavenly Jerusalem and no more. Please help clear this up.

ANSWER: Sorry for the great delay I have been moving house and have just got my internet back on.


I will quote certain point's you made below and cover with my answers.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<This woman in Revelation chapter 12, I believe to be Israel. Jesus was the child who would rule with an iron rod (Psalm 2:9). Jesus was a Jew and his lineage was from Israel (Matt 1:1-16). Satan tried to devour Jesus by means of King Herod (Matt 2:3-8; 16). Does this all make sense?
With this I fail to see the New Jerusalem giving birth to a kingdom, in fact there is no scripture that I found to ties this woman to the New Jerusalem. Israel being the lineage to which Jesus came is what I find here.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Here's the thing to consider Revelation is a book of prophecy not history.

Rev 1:1

"A revelation* by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,+ to show his slaves+ the things that must shortly take place"

How do you reconcile that with your understanding regarding Revelation 12??

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,Four Jerusalem’s
I just do not find that in the Bible nor in your reply. I see two, the ancient Jerusalem (Which we both agree with) and the Jerusalem from above. Based on what you have provided for the other three, they consist of the same group or make up if you will, the 144,000. In one you said that it is Jesus and the 144,000, the next you said it is 144,000/the Bride of Christ, and the 3rd you said was offspring that includes the 144,000. The three you stated were the Heavenly Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem and then the Jerusalem from above.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Jerusalem above is OUR MOTHER.

Gal 4:

26 "But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother"

The mother to the seed of Abraham

29 "Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring,*+ heirs+ with reference to a promise"

New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ(I think we agree on this)

Heavenly Jerusalem is the city of God including Christ

22 "But you have approached a Mount Zion+ and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem"

Psalms 118:

22 "The stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone"

Christ being the chief cornerstone make's up that city of God.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<I find different figures for Sarah and Hagar based on the context of Galatians. At Gal 4:24 “24 These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si′nai, which bears children for slavery and which is Ha′gar.”
If we look to see the history of this covenant at Mount Si’nai it takes us back to Exodus 19:1-5 and the Ten Commandments at Exodus 20. This took place three months after the Israelites left Egypt (Exodus 19:1) and at that time there were 600,000 men not including the women and children (Exodus 12:31-38). These were men of 20 years of age and older (Exodus 38:26). So rightfully there were close to 1.2 million people (women and children included) in all if not more. This is the covenant represented in Gal 4:25 as I understand it.
After establishing a number (could be more) in the covenant of Hagar, we know that from the scripture in Isaiah 54:1 that the other covenant mentioned in Gal 4 (Sarah)  is to outnumber the first. This puts a problem with the 144,000 being the Heavenly Jerusalem/Jerusalem from above/New Jerusalem as there were more than 600,000 in the covenant with Hagar.>>>>>>>>>

I don't understand your point here.

The chapter is talking about spiritual Israelite's not literal Israelite's. Hagar doesn't represent the Jerusalem above so she has no seed.

Maybe you can clarify the point you are making here??

<<<<<<Sarah's seed outnumbers Hagar's in this way just as Isaiah tells us.”
So really I do not see how 144,000 can make up this Heavenly Jerusalem and no more. Please help clear this up>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If you clarify your above point we can take it from there. Perhaps this is your confusion.

Speak soon

Take Care



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: While I agree with you about Revelation being prophecy, this does not exclude things past. Such as the Tribes of Israel of which the 144K come from. If we use scripture to interpret scripture then we have to draw from Biblical history to understand this future prophecy, no?

So what you are saying is you do not believe that Satan has been cast out of Heaven? It is still a future event according to Rev ch 12?

-----------------------------------------------------------

You still have not given evidence to 4 Jerusalem's.


-----------------------------------------------------------

My point here is that based on scripture it is impossible to limit the number of people who belong to the Heavenly Jerusalem. I understand the difference between the spiritual and the literal Jerusalem. One is of Hagar and the other is of Sarah. Those of Sarah will outnumber those of Hagar. The spiritual Jerusalem will consist of a greater number of person's than that of Hagar. Hagar's number was clearly greater that 144,000 as seen in Exodus.

All in all, what I'm not getting is the backing for excluding all but 144k from this Heavenly Jerusalem, when the scriptures declare otherwise.

Answer
O.K let me ask you a series of questions to see if you can understand the point. Based on scripture

If the tribes of Israel in Revelation are the same as those in literal Israel why is the tribe of Joseph there??

If Revelation was given to John after the birth of Christ as things that hadn't yet took place how can it be referring to the birth of Christ??

If the Jews had remained faithful what hope would the Gentiles have??

With regard the heavenly hope how does that foreshadow the mosaic law??

Why are people going to heaven??

If Adam hadn't sinned where would humans be right now??

Why is Jesus called the foundation cornerstone and of what??

Why is the Jerusalem above called our mother and of who??

Why do all the Jerusalem's have different names and why do they have these names??

O.K that will do for now.

The point I'm trying to make by asking you to answer these questions is this, you can't just make statement's and not back them up.SCripture interprets scripture as you say, however there's a lot more scripture's on this subject that we've even come close to discussing. You need to know exactly WHY you believe a certain thing and not just guess and assume. WHY is the most important question.

I want you to start reasoning in EXACTLY the same way god made us to reason to reach the right conclusion

If you find the scriptural answers to the above questions you will have your basic answer that you can later expand on.

Bear in in mind this scripture. Please don't think I'm saying that you are like this but the point is it is impossible to understand spiritual things without spiritual eyes.

Acts 28:

23"And from morning to evening, he explained the matter to them by bearing thorough witness concerning the Kingdom of God, to persuade them about Jesus+ from both the Law of Moses+ and the Prophets.+ 24 Some began to believe the things he said; others would not believe"

1 Cor 9:

6 "I planted,+ A·pol′los watered,+ but God kept making it grow, 7 so that neither is the one who plants anything nor is the one who waters, but God who makes it grow"

Speak Soon  

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I have many years of experience serving Jehovah . I have known Jehovah a long time and I have known his organization . I have been privileged to see great progress not only in my own personal relationship with my God and Father but within his organization. I am an avid reader of the bible and have been gifted by my Father with the indescribable privilege of being allowed to understand his own word.

Experience

The truth is all about scripture and logic. The two go hand in hand . There is not one bible verse that cannot be understood within the realms of human reasoning. Not one!! Why would it?? The bible is God's message to his creation . His creation who he made to understand things in a specific way. God is not stupid or unwise as to leave as a message then allow us to guess what it means or who he is. 1 Tim 2:3This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth" Notice the expression "accurate knowledge".

Organizations
The bible leaves signs of true christianity there are many. Jehovah's witnesses meet every single sign. One sign is the removal of false teachings that permeated the world soon after the apostles died. Jesus foretold this and he also foretold of the restoration of pure worship in the period known as the last days. The days we are currently living in. Jesus was a master of using illustrations he used an illustration to highlight this point Matt 13: "The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse" Why did he speak in illustrations? Matt 13:10So the disciples came and said to him: “Why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” 11In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted" The kingdom of the heavens is full of sacred secrets that Jesus reveals only to his followers. This privilege is open to all who are really willing to submit to God and his Christ in action not just in words. These are the ones God is looking for. Are you really one?? If so I encourage you to let Jehovah's witnesses show you what the Bible really teaches.

Education/Credentials
False religion is disgusting to God and to his true worshippers it is likened in the Bible to a harlot Rev 17:"I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication" Whereas the bride of Christ is likened to a virgin Rev 14: 4"These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins" These are both used as spiritual terms here and show the importance of pure and clean worship for God's people.

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