Jehovah`s Witness/Christian brothers

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Derrick,

I just typed into Google Bob L Ross debates CC on line and got the youtube link. If you have any problem getting it you can go to . They are quite interesting if you are into that kind of thing.

You were saved in an Assemblies of God Church, cool. I have never been to one only the PAOC. I know you may think it is the same, however you may find our version a little more low key, or maby not.

I can identify with your comment on emotionalism and going on feelings verses the word of God. I believe that many Charismatic Groups perhaps do this. When my wife and I were attending the CC we went to hear Mike Limb (evangelist for Christ for the Nations or some similar Group) preach at 'Eagle Mountain Church' not far from my home. Now I was raised Penticostal so Charismatic Groups don't scare me much. However this group of people just seemed plain freaky. I wanted to get out of there so fast I was looking for any excuse. I was seriously weirded out.

Seriously question the authentisity of many of the out rageous things some of these groups claim God is doing (laughing in the Spirit, birthing in the Spirit, barking like dogs, etc) It seems odd and I really can't make sense of them. Generally when one claims to be a prophet with in the Church it seems getting to know them that it appears to more of an attension grab.

Most of the people I know who claim gifts of these kind are not ones who seem all that stable mentally either. I don't always question that they see things. Just if their visions are of God or not. Not saying either that they are of Satan simply that they may have mental conditions that skew fantacy from reality.

There are those kinds in the PACO I am sure, or their use to be. I find now however that the 'Gifts' are not such a central focus as is Biblical truth and promoting evangelism. When I left the PAOC Church I now attend again I didn't appear to me that they were doing anything beyond having Sunday Morning/Evening Service, Bible Study and Friday Youth Night. Now they have what they call a 'Vertigo Ministry' Where they have gone into the high schools and established themselves to help out the staff and students. They have a ministery up at the College. They are apart of the 'Loaves and Fishes' program. They also have the 'Singing Christmass Tree Every Year'. Pastor Ryan is taking the Youth on Mission trips to various Places here in Canada to help out in remote areas where there are specific needs to be met. The Last one was call 'Roses for Prostitutes' and was in Winnipeg which is a long way from B.C. They went to do street missions, specificly reaching out to the Prostitues there.

It's way different now then when I use to attend and I can still get that Old Penticostal passion and anointing I remember and hungered for for so long in the CC.

I do agree with you that if things are all emotion, and feeling then obediance to God and reverance to his word gets lost in translation. We are called to worship in 'Spirit and Truth'. With out the spirit you will dry up since the fullfillment of the truth is having the Holy Spirit dwell inside you, lead you and guide you.

The CC seems to be a good example to me of a Church that lacks heavily in this area or perhaps is missing it altogether, not sure. They however read the word of God and do their best to keep corresponces with God is limited to the Pages of Scripture. It is a technique I believe has lead them to the conclusions they have on Baptism in water and End Times prophecy, non instrument worship, and condemnation of all other 'Christians'. It was Bob L Ross that really got me thinking about the history of the CC and that such a pattern didn't exist before Alexander Campbell.

Fact it that when you start down that road with the CC it is a very dark one. If you listen to sermons for theirs when refering to Christian history they will provide quotes from Spurgeon, Early Church Fathers (Catholic, Protestant), but never from a CC. Which proves that they have no record of their own kind before Alexander Campbell and the restoration movement began in the mid to late 1800s.

However they will condemn anyone that does not get saved as they do, believing as they do. This means that there is no historical record of anyone getting saved until Alexander baptized his first believer. Even Alexander was not 'rebaptized'.

I asked a couple of my leaders concerning this matter and they said that it does not matter who has been saved only that we get saved (more or less) according to the word of God. The rabbit hole gets deeper for them and the JWs.

It occured to me in all this that our very bible is composed of books that appeared on a List. This list is called the Cannon or rule of inspired scriptures. This list was completed some say four hundered years AD. That would mean that it was done in the Catholic Church Anti Niecea. Now if that is true then the very Bible CC has and JWs have is a product of monks deciding what Goes and what does not go. In other words these men needed to be Christians to understand what was 'of God' and what was not. Yes the Cannon had a standard to judge by. However it is human to error. So if God didn't select spirit filled Christians for the tast how could they know for sure. Scripture itself attest to this rule.

I personally believe that God's Church has always existed and he has saved Catholic and Protestant. I believe that God knows we cannot be saved if our salvation is a product of us 'getting it right'. We are saved by his grace as God examines the condition of our hearts. Is such an excuse to sin or ignore and not obey him? Never. God deals with our hearts a appeals to our conscience to do what is right. Perhaps he is more concerning with the details that are most valuable first then cleaning up the rest later.

I know you had other things you said and comments. I will however leave it here for now. I thank you and appreciate your friendship . I will be in touch.

God Bless
Shane

Answer
Good afternoon, Shane.  How are you?  I am HOPING that I am able to get this completed and sent to you, as I am experiencing computer issues today.  Twice, has my computer shut down for no apparent reason.  I hope I'm not getting ready to have a major issue....:(

Anyway, I did find the debates.  Looks like there are several YouTube videos, and a number of videos in the series.  I started watching, but am not finished yet.  I find things like this very interesting.  Are you speaking of the one where Mr. Ross was debating the 2 black gentlemen in the COC?

Also, I fully agree with you about the charismatic movement.  The problem with it, is that many of the weird happenings make most people on the outside think that ALL Pentecostal groups share in these things.  Now, I am not God, mind you....But I see absolutely NO Scriptural support at all for barking, "laughing in the spirit", or any of the other manifestations that occur.  I believe anything like that should be Scriptural, and not based on a tingling in the spine, or a good feeling.  I have heard some of these folks say things like..."I KNOW it was the anointing of God, because I could just feel it".  I always shake my head, and ask them where the Scripture says our feelings are the final authority on anything?

Don't get me wrong....There ARE blessings and good feelings that come from being saved, and worshipping our Creator, to be sure.  But at the end of the day, everything has to line up with the Scriptures, because it is the final authority.  That is why I don't get into much of the "feel good" preachers on TV that we see.  I think when sin is running rampant in the church, we need to be preaching the Gospel to the lost, and holiness to the saints, instead of how to be rich and healthy, and drive the nicest car around.

I appreciate what your church is doing, in an effor to reach the lost....Especially the ones that many don't care about, or don't try to reach.  Like the ministry to the prostitutes that you mentioned, for example.  So many people view ones like this as "unworthy", but Jesus died for them the same as anyone else.  I think that is great.

YOU:  "However they will condemn anyone that does not get saved as they do, believing as they do. This means that there is no historical record of anyone getting saved until Alexander baptized his first believer. Even Alexander was not 'rebaptized'."


Yeah, you know that is one of the interesting things about it.  There was no Church of Christ minister, to baptize Alexander Campbell.  And isn't this a requirement?  That you not only be baptized, but that you ALSO believe that the baptism IS what is saving you?  I think the Mormons have a similar dilemma, with their idea of the "authority of the priesthood" to baptize, and ole Joseph Smith himself not having anyone with that authority to baptize him.  If my memory serves me correct, that is.  Seems like I studied something about that years ago.


Anyway, got to get off here for now.  So far so good, but I'm afraid if I stay on here much longer, I will lose everything I have typed.  I gotta get this thing checked out, and hope I'm not in for a hard drive crash.

Take care, Shane, and God bless.


Derrick  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

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29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

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I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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