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Jehovah`s Witness/Fleshy/spiritual destination(comparing views)


Hello. Mr Brenton gave me a very a good answer on the "fleshy/spiritual" and "earthly/heavenly destination" subject. It will be very interesting to test and compare both views, if you have a different one on the subject.

Thank you.

I have read several of Mr. Hepburn's replies on this topic, so I am not exactly sure which one you are referring to exactly.  

At any rate, his answers are very long, as are mine on this subject.  For me to go through each and every paragraph, and break it down point by point, would take most of the evening and then some.  If you want to pick out certain parts that you have a question about, I would be happy to address those.  But I simply do not have the time required to pick apart every reply of his, point by point.

I will address one comment he made, and again, I am not sure if this is the reply you are asking about.  But it stood out to me, when he said....

"We see Paul as elaborating on the fact that the Jews, as a nation, had been rejected, and is explaining that God had not forsaken his promise but is keeping it by bringing in a new nation."

Herein lies the problem...When a promise is made to a person/nation, it is NOT kept if it is fulfilled in someone else.  I have given the analogy several times, of the guy who promises to buy his wife a diamond ring, but then buys the ring for another woman instead.  When his wife confronts him about his broken promise, the husband says..."I didn't break my promise...I bought the ring just like I said I would".  But he didn't buy it FOR the person whom he said he would, so he still broke the promise.

I understand that Mr. Hepburn has to give an answer that supports the WT's false "replacement theology", but that doesn't change the fact that God either will fulfill His promise to the people whom He made it to, or we will not.

And He will, for the Scripture says that the "gifts and calling of God are without repentance", and the context of this verse is dealing with His promises to Israel as a nation.

He also said...   

"JWs  hold that  according to the context of Romans and other supporting texts that Romans 11 is a clear indication of a spiritual nation."

This is where I strongly disagree with Mr. Hepburn.  There is NO way to make Romans 11 speak of any "spiritual Israel", as there is NO such thing in the NT as "spiritual Israel".  Secondly, there are things listed in Romans 11 that can in no way, be applied to the Christian congregation, but can ONLY be applied to national Israel.

When a person or group wants to teach another interpretation of Scripture, than the LOGICAL one, and the one that is gained by a simple and plain reading, then the burden of proof is on them to show that their alternate view is correct.  

Here is what we agree on:

1.  Israel was made promises, yet disobeyed Jehovah God, and rejected their Messiah.
2.  Israel remains in a state of unbelief, to this day (which is the WHOLE POINT of Romans 11, by the way)
3.  Because of Israel's rejection, the opportunity for the Gentiles to come to Christ by faith, has been extended.  Jehovah God has turned His attention, for the present time, to the Gentiles.

What we DISAGREE on:

1.  That Israel's rejection is PERMANENT, because Romans 11 acknowledges their future "grafting" back into the tree that they are currently "cut off" from.

2.  That Israel's disbelief in their Messiah is a permanent state of disbelief, because once again, Romans 11 contradicts this false idea, and Jehovah God made the promises to NATIONAL Israel, knowing full well that they WOULD reject their Messiah (Isaiah 53).

The problem with "replacement theology" people, is that they fail to understand 2 essential things:

1.  The difference between Israel and the Church.
2.  The purpose of the Tribulation period.

If they ever got those 2 things right, their theology would line up as well.  

But to make Romans 11 teach a "spiritual Israel, is simply impossible, without doing great damage to the context, and ignoring plain statements to the contrary.

Like I said, if you have questions about a specific part of this article, I will address it.  But no way am I spending the next 2-3 days, addressing every single paragraph.

Thanks, and take care.

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Derrick Holland


I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.


29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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