Jehovah`s Witness/Hades and Sheol
QUESTION: Hi Sister T. I was talking to a JW and he was telling me that there was no such thing as hell. He told me that Hades and sheol were merely a common grave where people go when they die and cease to exist and have no memories or feelings and knowledge of nothing. But when I'm reading the bible they talk about Hades as being a literal place where there is torment (a feeling no? ).It is often described with terms as fire and suffering. Just one verse I found of many is this regarding Hades.
In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side Luke 16:23
So I see that there was torment and this person was able to see. If a person is conscience of nothing how can they have these experiences?
ANSWER: Hello Kevin,
First let me me say that God is the one who authored the Bible, and the Bible does not contradict itself whatsoever, if there are any contradictions, it's because of man, not God's Word the Bible, as ALL scripture is inspired of God. (2 Tim 3:16).
Hades and Sheol are basically just mankind's common grave. It's not a literal place where people who did wrong are judged to go there when they die to be tormented and burned forever and ever. Let's reason on this as we go along. Once I'm done, you can believe men, or you can believe the Bible.
Some people are so bent on JW's being wrong and trying to prove us wrong that they don't even use their brains and see what the Bible says. I quoted a scripture to someone once, just a scripture that disproved what they said, a Bible scripture not even with the NWT Bible either, but because the person was so biased against JW's, he said all I do is say what the Watchtower tells me. But I had only gave him a Scripture. That's what's wrong with people today, they will go against what the Bible says, just so they can say that JW's are wrong. That's not a wise thing to do, because JW's didn't author the Bible, God did!
In Luke 16:23 it speaks about Abraham and a beggar named Lazarus, the rich man parable. And that's what it is, a parable. Jesus gave many parables or illustrations to his disciples. The reason he gave illustrations is because many were not really interested in what he had to say, but because he was healing them and feeding them, they followed him around, so if they were interested they'd come ask him the meaning of it. And is why he said he would not speak to them unless it was in illustrations.
Matt 13:34,35 "All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them; 35 that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet who said: “I will open my mouth with illustrations, I will publish things hidden since the founding.” Also read Matt. 10:13-15.
Plus, how can someone who is in a supposed burning blaze be cooled by a drop of water on the tip of someone's finger? And how can someone who is supposed to be in this lowly place of torment, see up into the heavens and talk back and forth? You want to make this literal, but literal things are not taking place here. Why? Because it's not literal, they all stand for something and have a meaning, just like all of the other illustrations and parables that Jesus gave.
Now the Bible says this:
Ecc 9:5 "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten"
So the Bible CLEARLY says, the DEAD ARE CONSCIOUS OF NOTHING AT ALL.
Ez. 18:4 "....The soul that is sinning—it itself will die"
If Hades/Sheol was a literal place of torment, why did Job pray to go there? Job was suffering and he prayed to go to Sheol so his suffering would stop. So how is Sheol a place of torment? It's just death the common grave.
Job 14:13 "O that in She′ol you would conceal me, That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back,That you would set a time limit for me and remember me"
Job knew it was no such thing as a burning fiery hell. Or else he would not have said what he said. He wanted to go to Sheol, because the Bible says:
Ecc 9:10 "All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going."
Also, since Hades/Sheol is supposed to be a place of torment and fire for people who have sinned, then how come the Bible says, Jesus was there? Jesus was without sin.
Acts 2:31 "he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Ha′des nor did his flesh see corruption"
Heb 4:14,15 "Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him]. 15 For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin"
So Jesus was not left in Hades, meaning he was there, why was he there since he was without sin? Because he died, it's gravedom! It's not a literal place that one goes to be tortured, the Bible proves that.
Also, if the bad people go to be tortured in a fiery hell forever and ever, then why does the Bible say this:
Rev. 20:13 "And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds."
We see that Hades gave up those dead and they were judged once they left Hades. So if they were already judged in order to be sent to Hell/Hades/sheol, in the first place, what's the point in bringing them back out of Hell and judging them again? Makes no sense! are you saying God is an idiot? How dare you! See that's why people need to study the Bible instead of listening to some man in a pulpit telling lies!! If anyone is under mind control it's those who believe this rubbish about a burning torturing Hell!! Complete and total LIE! Who is the Father of the lie? Satan (John 8:44). Who told Eve she wouldn't die after God said she would? We see Satan still deceiving people today, just like he did Eve, telling them they don't really die!! Lying on God and accusing him of things he never said or planned to do. And they are falling for it just like Eve did. It worked back then, it's working now.
Now for the ultimate Hell smasher:
Rev. 20:14, "And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire."
First of all Death is a condition, but we see that it along with Hades is hurled into the lake of fire. A condition can't be burned up forever and ever and be tormented, and you want to say that Hell was hurled into Hell right or are you saying there's two Hells, or did you not catch that?
The Bible clearly says what the Lake of fire is, it's the second death! It shows what Hades/Sheol is. The GRAVE of Mankind. Since people don't know nothing after they die, they can't be tormented after death. You do realize that spirit creatures can't be burned in Fire?
Also, let's not forget that the Devil is supposed to be there in Hell forever sticking folks with pitch forks pushing them back down into the lava and lake of fire and whatnot....so what will happen when the Devil is destroyed? Ever think about that one? The Devil is mad because he knows he has a short period of time, he's going to be destroyed soon! (Rev. 12:12, Gen 3:15) so he won't even be around to torture people in Hell forever and ever. Never thought about that did you?
So your Hell theory is smashed to smithereens according to the Bible. Now if you don't want to agree with what the Bible says, and use reason and logic, that's on you. Keep believing that parable is literal and that God is vindictive and hateful and will cause people to burn forever and ever if you want to. I'm going to believe what the Bible says, God is Love!! Your God is evil and sadistic, not mine! If what you say is real then the Bible contradicts itself, and again, God does not contradict himself, people do, and the demons want you to be all confused and twisted around, God's word is in full harmony from cover to cover. So that parable, obviously has a different meaning, you just have not been given the understanding of that meaning. It's not about a literal place of fiery torment.
Don't come back with nothing else unless you want to say the Bible is wrong. Whatever you read about torment, everlasting fire means something other then HELL of torture burning people up forever and ever! That's been disproved by the Bible itself. If you want to fight against God then you're on your own!
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hi Sister T. First of all I never said the bible or God contradicts itself. I just had questions about what you think of certain doctrines. You said you put your trust in the bible,not man's interpretations. Why then do you put so much faith in what the watchtower says? They are also imperfect men. Even they say they made mistakes about what some scriptures prophesied. About 1874 and 1975. You say you study the bible and get all your knowledge from it. I dare say that I firmly believe that's not entirely true. Like I said before, I read the booklet "what the bible really teaches" and it was a blueprint to tell you what the WT thinks the bible says. Are you going to tell me that you reached all of your opinions about the bible yourself after reading it from cover to cover? I asked a JW I work with,when he began studying with the JWs, if he believed Jesus was Michael? He said no. After they showed him the the booklet he changed his opinion. So you see the Jws get their understanding from the manmade organization called the watchtower. I'm hard pressed to think you could arrive to the conclusion that Jesus was appointed king in 1914,by merely reading the bible. I can however, see how the WT could tell you what to believe first, then show you supporting verses later. The whole time ignoring other verses that go against what you believe.
My JW co-worker said they are the true religion. How so I asked? Because the bible says so and you can see by our fruits. Well my personal experiences with Jws shows me that they are often bitter and don't really like discussing things that go against what they believe. They do like to preach their agenda though. That's fine. But when they taught that Armageddon would keep occurring at least 5 times that's all I needed to see that you are not the true religion. Only God knows the day or hour. I've read several articles from the watchtower relating to this. Again they admitted their mistakes about doing this. So as a bible student,how can you agree with the WT says about the Armageddon? You mentioned mind control before. Do you understand how that works? Probably not I'm assuming. Do you know how cults work? They all have things in common. They separate the flock from outsiders. They discourage independent thinking. Why is it JWs are not allowed to read material from apostates? Are they afraid you might open your eyes to the truth? In the WT Jan. 13 edition they even used a quote from an apostate to support a thought.#Richard Kyle#.They also quoted another person in their literature and referenced his book "the paganism in our Christianity" If you read this book you would have to wonder why they would use this person who clearly goes against a vast majority of what you believe.
You say that the Trinity is a lie,but you don't even understand what it is.I don't believe what the WT teaches, but I'm strong enough in my faith to not be afraid to learn about them on my own. What the WT teaches on their own web site about the Trinity is not accurate. Why did they remove the book called "should you believe in the Trinity"? Because it contained faulty information and misquotes? I know in order for something to get published by the WT, it goes through several chains and proof readers before it gets approved.
The Wt teaches that Catholics teach evolution. How can they say this? Genesis clearly says that God created everything. Are you saying the Leaders of the church don't understand this? My Jw co-worker showed me an article from the catholic encyclopaedia to support this claim. You see, instead of using common sense he just regurgitated what was told to him. Same as Jesus being Michael,1914 and all the other questionable doctrines.
How can the JWs say they follow Christ's example when they separate themselves from non JWs? Christ taught us to love one another. When my jW co-worker stated that he hates the Pope, how is that showing love? Where do you think he got this emotion from? He also said it's okay to hate because it says so in the bible. Again proof why I think you can't be the true religion.
When I read the bible, God wrote it for everybody to understand, I reach a certain level of understanding.If God wants to kill me for not understanding every little minutia, so be it. Im fine with that because my understanding tells me that God loves me no matter what. He has greater compassion and knowledge than you or me will ever phantom. I don't think He wrote it so that a select few people in Brooklyn would have to decipher it and then change it to fit their beliefs. I also don't think God would wait until the NW translation to make His word known. I dare say if you stopped reading the Wt stuff and solely the bible you would come around, but we both know that will never happen. Part of the mind control they use to keep you in submission. Being a bible student you should know that the bible alone is suffcient.Nowhere does it say you need auxiliary materials, just the bible. So give it a try. read just the bible and see what happens? The WT says in 2 years you will fall back in a state of apostate.
You also like to call me a liar and others for talking about what I believe. You're not a liar for thinking that Jesus is Michel the Arch Angel, you're just mistaken. Big difference. A liar is someone who knows something,but says another thing different than what he thinks knowingly.
Hello again Kevin,
You know, I already said to believe what you wanted to believe. I called your belief a lie because the Bible proves it's a lie. So if you teach a lie, then what does that make you?
I'm not going to address every single thing you said...I don't have the time and I'm not interested.
Yes, it's what you believe, but if you are shown different STRAIGHT from the pages of the BIBLE, and you REFUSE to accept it, then don't try to twist that around to it being a Watchtower teaching. I really don't care if you don't want to believe the Watchtower or not, because you don't believe the Bible either, so what difference does it really make? Not a one!
You are mind controlled, NOT ME! (2 Cor. 4:4) You can say all day long what you think, but the fact remains is you CANNOT prove what YOU think from the Bible, so you want to go on this long tirade about what you THINK and FEEL instead of what the Bible SAYS! You still can't fight against the truth from the Bible with lies, as not I, but the BIBLE blew your Hell teaching clean out of the water, not even out of the water, but out of the entire universe!! So all you are left with is tactics, tricks and mind games that I don't fall for. I'm not the one for that, sorry Kevin, you're going to have to try that on someone else.
I see you can't disprove anything from the Bible, all you can come back with is about the Watchtower, it's not my fault God isn't giving you understanding. Until you have a change of heart and want to learn truth, it's being withheld from you (Dan. 12:10)
As I stated before to you, or someone, I don't remember, about the Ethiopian Eunuch who was just reading from the Bible and guess what? God had one of his prophets to go explain the Bible to him, not just that one scripture, but he started with that scripture and so on, so that tells you right there that there is more involved then just reading the Bible, that's not making the Bible unimportant, so don't even try it. Obviously it's more involved or there was no point in even putting that episode in the Bible, but God made sure it was penned for a reason!! (Acts 8:27-35; also read Romans 10:13-15)
Now you yourself say you just read the Bible only, although that's not totally correct, you learned the Hell teaching from someone and the Trinity lie, you didn't come up with that all on your own from just only reading the Bible, that LIE was going around before you were even born! You heard it from someone else, from the religion of your parents, relatives or friends or going to church, so don't give me that crap. Listen good, ANYTHING that a person knows is because they learned it from somewhere or someone else. And YOU are no different than anyone else. If you never had any human contact with anyone in this entire world and came up with that ALL BY YOURSELF, then you're not being truthful, because you wouldn't even know how to read in order to read the Bible, in fact, you wouldn't know how to even speak, in fact you would not even be here because you can't survive without another human to care for you as you were once an infant, and as you grew you learned the things from the people around you. That statement you made is so full of baloney and mind games it's not even funny, but as I said, you can't play that game with me....
Please sir, take your own advice and take off the blinders and stop listening to your blind guides. You yourself are a blind guide from what you believe and what you think is truth when in fact they are teachings of demons! (1 Tim 4:1).
See you don't even understand what that JW even meant when he said that he hated the Pope. Do you know that people put the Pope above God? That's where your lack of spiritual and scriptural understanding is. I bet you don't even know or else you don't care to know that the Papacy was founded on an incorrect understanding of Matt 16:18!!
Look at this scripture..did you know that God said he hated Esau?
Mal. 1:2,3 "“I have loved YOU people,” Jehovah has said. And YOU have said: “In what way have you loved us?” “Was not E′sau the brother of Jacob?” is the utterance of Jehovah. “But I loved Jacob, 3 and E′sau I have hated; and I finally made his mountains a desolated waste and his inheritance for the jackals of [the] wilderness."
Why did He say this? Esau proved himself unworthy of Jehovah’s love by despising his birthright and selling it and also the divine promises and blessings attached thereto. Moreover, he purposed to kill his brother Jacob.
God also hates lofty eyes, a false tongue, hands that are shedding innocent blood, a heart fabricating hurtful schemes, feet that are in a hurry to run to badness, a false witness, anyone sending forth contentions among brothers, in fact, everyone and everything standing in complete opposition to Jehovah and his righteous laws (Pr 6:16-19; De 16:22; Isa 61:8; Zec 8:17; Mal 2:16).
Now does the Pope teach people that there is no Hell or no Trinity as the Bible shows? Or does he teach there is a fiery Hell that a loving God is said to send people to burn up forever and ever and torture them forever and ever, or that there is a Trinity...does he teach that false teaching or not? You know he does...enough said!
Don't try to cast a bad light on my brother by trying to use some shock statement. People look to religious leaders for truth and guidance and are getting told untruths that will lead them to their very death, that's serious!
You said, a liar is someone who knows something, but says another thing different, so you know and have been told I'm sure more than once from me and others about Hell, the Trinity and other things, the Bible shows it's not true, yet you still say different...sooooo, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, what is it? A Kangaroo? Please! are you serious? NOT WORKING!
About Michael/Jesus, research of the entire Bible shows the connection, that Michael is Jesus, just because you want Jesus to NOT be an angel or created and to be Almighty God is the only reason you fight against it, because if you agreed, it would mean that your whole belief system is wrong, and you can't bring yourself to deal with that reality, so you choose to stay in the darkness rather then opening your mind controlled brain up and learn Truth...
As I've said before, be happy in your belief, you are the one coming on a forum for questions for JW's obsessed with us, you are an opposer, be opposed and do your own thing, what's the point with continuing to come on here in hopes that you can try to win against Bible Truths? You keep sending questions over and over again without reading the replies just so you can try and spread your false teachings around, or think you can stump us, or try to make us look bad to other people. You know why you can't win? I'll tell you, because it's not OUR TEACHINGS...It's Jehovah's, It's the BIBLE!!! And try as you might, you just can't win against God. You never will.
Have a good day, I'm going to believe the Bible and Jehovah and amazingly that's what the WATCHTOWER TEACHES!!! You need to take heed now before it's too late, or maybe it's already too late. But I never give up hope for people.
But you can believe as you want and keep it moving....I'm sure you'll go away and come back to try to disprove what the Bible says at a more convenient time anyway.... (Luke 4:13). So until then I bid you ado!!