Jehovah`s Witness/ISRAEL

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Question
QUESTION: Hello Mr Holland. I just noticed the current hot subject you mentioned in my other letter to you.

Although I have the same view for "Israel" as the JWs, not because of personal hatred against Jews but plainly because of the NT scriptures, I'd like to know why you believe theres no "spitirual Israel" in the NT. Then, instead of the belief  that ALL people of fleshy Israel will be saved, I'd like to know if you accept that a man born Jew is more precious in the eyes of Jehovah than a man of another nation. That is to say, Jews not only separated for a mission by Jehovah but also separated because He loves them more(or that a Jew loves God more than another man who is also a believer of Jehovah).

Thank you very much. Have a good day

ANSWER: I think you have misunderstood.  Nobody has said that God "loves them more" for being Jewish.  He doesn't.  God commendeth His toward THE WORLD, by the death of Jesus Christ.  It has nothing to do with loving anyone more than anyone else.  This is what the Bible says about that...

2 Peter 3:9-  "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."


It isn't that He loves anyone more than anyone else...Its that He has made certain promises to them, as His chosen covenant people, and they are promises which He has said He will fulfill.


YOU:  "Although I have the same view for "Israel" as the JWs, not because of personal hatred against Jews but plainly because of the NT scriptures, I'd like to know why you believe theres no "spitirual Israel" in the NT."

REPLY:  Because there is no such term or teaching in the entire New Testament, as a "spiritual Israel".  I would disagree, and say that there is no Scripture at all which backs up the JW view on this topic, and numerous ones (such as Romans 11), which clearly refute it.  There is no way to read that chapter and honestly conclude that it isn't talking about NATURAL Israel.


YOU:  "I'd like to know if you accept that a man born Jew is more precious in the eyes of Jehovah than a man of another nation."

REPLY:  No.  The fact is, we are ALL sinners, and both Jew AND Gentile need to come to Jesus Christ as the provision for their salvation.  This discussion is merely about whether or not God is going to keep the promises He made, to the people He made them to.  The New Testament settels that argument, and never once states that those promises are negated or transferred.

Remember...It was by the Jew's rejection of Christ, that Gentiles can come in, and be considered the "beloved" of God.

Are Gentiles "beloved" of God?  Yes.  Consider the following passage....

Romans 9:24-26-  "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?  

As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."


Are the Jews "beloved" of God?  Yes.  Consider the following passage...

Romans 11:28-29-  "As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.  

For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance."


YOU:  "That is to say, Jews not only separated for a mission by Jehovah but also separated because He loves them more(or that a Jew loves God more than another man who is also a believer of Jehovah)."

REPLY:  I never said that He loves them more.  I DID say that they were His covenant people, and even though they are now in a state of unbelief, He made promises to them which He will not fail to bring to pass.

The JW notion that Jehovah made all these promises that He is trying to reneg on, and trying to transfer them to someone else, just so they will be "kept", is unscriptural.  Jehovah knew ahead of time they would not receive the Messiah initially, and He assures us in the New Testament of His promise to bring them to repentance.

That is what the Bible say, and that is what I believe.  I am not Jewish...It doesn't have much bearing on me one way or the other.  But I am not going to be so foolish as the JWs (and others) have been, and claim that MY group is really "spiritual Israel", when that concept doesn't even exist in the Scriptures.  The statements are there, and they are very plain to understand, for anyone who doesn't already have a pre-conceived doctrine they are trying to prop up.

Thanks for writing, and take care, Christaras.


Derrick






---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks. I now think I have a clearer view for what you think.

Youre talking about some promises that God has specifically given to Jews.

Now. What is the difference of spiritual Israel and Christian ekklesia? I dont see any difference. If Jesus made a new ekklesia and a new covenant with all repented sinners, how theyre not spiritual Israel? Theyre His new messengers.

Also asked Brenton's view on the subject.

I was disappointed reading a letter to Mr Benyamin where someone said the opposite belief is idiotic and that they drink something that makes them drunken. I may agree with him on the view, but I wouldnt call the other interpretation idiotic. Would he call Mr Russell, who had the same beliefs and wrote so many books for the restoration of Jews, an idiot? This is double standard. Mr Benyamin sadly talked to him gently, something that he hasnt do with others just because theyre not JWs.

This opened my eyes, so now I have no fear to be judged by anyone that calls himself "judge of Jehovah" with arrogance, cause I sincerely dont believe he has God approvance. If he judges as idiots all the others who have that opinion, but not his brother Russell who is of the same opinion with the "idiots", then this is not right judgement. So why should I fear that they will shut the door on my face? Which door? The door of salvation?

And they should know that THEY WERE THE REASON I am no more attracted to become member of their ekklesia, not YOU. Even if I dont distinct them from others and Im no less sinner than Rando or Granbaum, they should begin thinking if they should fear God rather than rich men who use them. This is too difficult to happen, since were all arrogant and if we realize something awful we dont want to admit it. But it would not be bad if Rando or Granbaum admit that Watchtower's elite clergy has sinned. Israel kings were considered awful, so why are they afraid to question "Brooklyn gods" when they sin? Why to hypocritically cover sins, instead of admitting them? It is more christian to say "I sinned", instead of "I never sinned, these are lies and distortions of the damned satanic apostates".

Thanks.

Answer
Good afternoon, and thanks for writing.

YOU:  "Thanks. I now think I have a clearer view for what you think.

Youre talking about some promises that God has specifically given to Jews."


ME:  That is correct...Not anything about loving anyone any more than someone else, but about fulfilling promises that cannot be broken.


I also did see your comments to Brenton today, and I admit I am puzzled by them.  You say you agree with the JW view, but also admit that Romans 11 does seem to teach that it is LITERAL Israel being spoken of.  There is no "seem" about it...the context of Romans 11 doesn't allow for any other interpretation, without doing extreme injustice to the passage.  Mr. Hepburn keeps making the point about using all of the Scriptures, which is true, but that only strengthens the case for national Israel, and weakens the WT's case.

So, I am a little puzzled why you say you agree with the JW view, but admit that Romans 11 contradicts it.  That is where it comes down to whether we are going to value our own opinions, or the Scriptures, the most.


YOU:  "I was disappointed reading a letter to Mr Benyamin where someone said the opposite belief is idiotic and that they drink something that makes them drunken. I may agree with him on the view, but I wouldnt call the other interpretation idiotic. Would he call Mr Russell, who had the same beliefs and wrote so many books for the restoration of Jews, an idiot? This is double standard. Mr Benyamin sadly talked to him gently, something that he hasnt do with others just because theyre not JWs."

ME:  Well, that is the difference between these people, and true Bible-believers.  A true Bible-believing Christian, will derive his views from the Bible.  This person you are referring to, who referred to statements from myself and Johan as "idiotic", listed NO Scriptures for his view.  He simply did his cowardly name-calling, and when challenged to write with his Scripture, predictably disappeared.  

Who didn't see that coming?

And no, I know for a FACT that Grunbaum...aka...Daniel Selinski, would not call Russell "idiotic".  In fact, Grunbaum has a great deal of admiration for Russell and his writings.  So yes, that is somewhat hypocritical, although to be fair, it was the questioner who used the term "idiotic".  However, Grunbaum DID falsely state that we who believe in a literal restoration of Israel, are "basing our salvation" on it.  That is nonsense...My salvation doesn't rest on a restoration of Israel...my salvation rests in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

That was simply more evidence that the man doesn't understand the doctrines of born again Christians, and has no business talking about them.  These people do more complaining about the non-Witnesses who they falsely claim "spread false information", yet they spread false information day in and day out.

We simply believe in Israel's restoration, because it is a Bible teaching.  No other reason is needed.


YOU: "This opened my eyes, so now I have no fear to be judged by anyone that calls himself "judge of Jehovah" with arrogance, cause I sincerely dont believe he has God approvance. If he judges as idiots all the others who have that opinion, but not his brother Russell who is of the same opinion with the "idiots", then this is not right judgement. So why should I fear that they will shut the door on my face? Which door? The door of salvation?"

ME:  Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about them, or their judgments.  TRUE judgment as done by God, will be fair, just, and equal.  If they would judge one person as "idiotic", and not judge another person as such, who taught the same thing, but hold that person in high esteem...Well, you don't get any more hypocritical than that.


YOU:  "And they should know that THEY WERE THE REASON I am no more attracted to become member of their ekklesia, not YOU. Even if I dont distinct them from others and Im no less sinner than Rando or Granbaum, they should begin thinking if they should fear God rather than rich men who use them. This is too difficult to happen, since were all arrogant and if we realize something awful we dont want to admit it. But it would not be bad if Rando or Granbaum admit that Watchtower's elite clergy has sinned."

ME:  Very interesting point, Christaras.  I would like to comment briefly on that one.

So, from your own words, it was THEM...Grunbaum and Rando, who caused you to no longer want to associate with JWs.  That is most interesting.  Because Grunbaum was sent the following quote just a day or two ago, and was asked for his opinion of it.  

It was:  "If truth is not undergirded by love, it makes the possessor of that truth obnoxious and the truth repulsive"

I read his answer with great interest, because although he was asked what he thought of the quote itself, he never answered that question.  For obvious reason, I believe.  Instead, he attacked the person making the quote as a "false prophet", and then contradicted himself by saying that if a person is telling the truth, it doesn' change the truth just because the person is obnoxious.  

The quote doesn't deny that the person possesses truth...It simply says that if the truth is presented in an unloving way, then it makes the person seem obnoxious, and the truth seem repulsive.  

To say it doesn't matter about the person themselves, and then attack the one who made the quote as a "false prophet", was very hypocritical in my opinion.  

I said that to say this....IF what these people preach is the "truth" (it isn't, by the way), then it should be presented in a way that is Christ-honoring, and loving.  That is what draws people to it.  Why preach something, even if true, in a way that makes people repulsed by it.  

Christians are supposed to be REPRESENTATIVES of Christ, not just SPOKESMEN for Him.  I think these people need to learn that.

So Congratulations, Grunbaum and Rando.  All your complaining about me being here (mostly Rando) was totally pointless, because I can personally testify that Christaras was VERY zealous in learning the WT doctrines at one point.  Even to the point of telling me in a private writing, that the publications were inspired by God.  Now, because of YOUR hateful mannerisms, the man no longer accepts what you teach on many areas, and no longer wants to become one of you.

Job well done, by your hatred.

Thanks for writing, Christaras.  I need to get caught up on a few more questions.  Take care.  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

Organizations
I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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