Jehovah`s Witness/Jehovah's Memory

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Ben,

Thanks for clarify this for me. I had to start a new question since it seems the reply part of that page was not an option any longer.

1. Now concerning the NWT, if it is an approved version of scripture or not. I reject not because it is the most correct version of scripture but because it has been denounced by Most if not all leading Greek Scholars. I have been given permission by once online site to provide few quote with credentials etc;


Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT "a frightful mistranslation," "Erroneous" and "pernicious" "reprehensible" "If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists." (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature)

Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."

British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, "From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated."
"Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had misquoted me in support of their translation." (These words were excerpted from the tape, "Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation", Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation)

Dr. Julius Mantey , author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT "a shocking mistranslation." "Obsolete and incorrect." "It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 'The Word was a god.'"
"I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures.... it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation." (Julius Mantey , Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137)
the translators of the NWT are "diabolical deceivers." (Julius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin)


This is just a few I found on the fly, I am intersted to find out what Thayer has to say concering this copy and AT Robertson, also Greek Scholars. I also have spoken with Jack P. Lewis who is a scholar who wrote part of the NT for the NIV and may be able to get his thoughts on this as well. From what I have read and understand concerning this translation the Jehovahs witness provide people with a false assurance that their rendition of truth is verified and validated by known and trusted scholars as you can see from above this is simply not the case.

I have lots more info on this topic, however it is a big topic so I will share it with you and all reading this as we continue on. We can start with this topic again when I respond to you next time it that is ok? As for Colwell and the Chicago University Press I did check it out. I did find you list for the date mensioned, and yes as far as I can tell they rate NWT the best and KJV the worst.

Please note however that colwell (whoever he is) was not the one who wrote this list or at least thats how the info read.

Secondly Colwells rule concerning greek grammar is said to be one that validate the trinitarian understanding of John 1:1 so I am not sure how this really helps your case out.

Thirdly it seems a little suspicious to me that the name of Jehovah never appears on any of the oldest copies of koine Greek we have. Yet it appears some what 200 times in the NWT. Perhaps this is where dishonest, or misleading comes into play. I am no scholar but isn't translation a matter of taking a word that exists in another language and appears on a page and copying it out on another piece of paper in a different language? If the word does not exist then what right does the author have to add it in? Kurios also means lord and refers to Both Jesus and God the Father.



2. Now on to our identity crisis concerning Jesus.

I asked you to provide me with verbatum verses that say Jesus is the Arch Angel Micheal, did I not? Can you tell me what it means when someone asks you to recite something 'verbatum'? I know you are an educated man but let me help you with this one. It means word for word. This is why I didn't want your apostate Bible involved, that would be an easy out, and you didn't use it so thank you.

So what is proven from your responce for all to see is that there is not one passage where Jesus claims to be an Angel, implies that he is an Angel, nor any passage of the OT that states that Micheal would come to earth as a man named Jesus to saved the word of their sins. Furthermore you didn't find for me even one passage that states that Micheal is Gods one and only son, that he created the world, etc.

Although you didn't provide a direct answer to my question you did say something. It is an avoidance tactic used by JWs in deal with Christians who question them.

You brought up Daniel 12:1 "Micheal will stand up". You say this is because he is King or a King. However not King of Kings as is Jesus which is interesting. Anyway, as stated 'you claim he is king based on the comment 'stand up'. I am no scholar like you, however I do know he is an Arch Angel which is also a leadership role among them. Infact Daniel 10:13 (NIV) defines that he is one of 4 'Chief princes', most likely meaning 'arch angels' but I will need to reference this out.  He however does have a role to play as you mension in defending Daniels people which would be 'isreal'. Although the wording here does indicate end times for all I know that scripture provides poetic language to describe comming and events that are taking place that is not always litteral. Peters statement concerning the fulfillment of Joels Prophecy in Act 2 is a great example of this.

If you read it you will find lots of poetic language concerning the out pouring of the Holy Spirit and the time of the beginning of the last days. And yes they started at Penticost not in 1914 as your org declairs.

I would agree with you that this prophecy is speaking about the last great battle and the end, however there is lost of ideas concerning prophecy such as this since a lot has happened since that time that could be understood as it's fulfillment. And when it comes to any prophecy there is much uncertianty and ambiguity as to what exactly is referenced, when etc. I will clarify here that I agree with you concerning Daniels prophecy being an end time prophecy correlating with Revelations that is where 'I stand' on it. I will say that this in no way proves by any means that Jesus is Micheal. Again no passage in Daniel shows this or iplies it. It only provides us with the understanding that Micheal who is ONE of FOUR is designated to protect Daniels people who are the JEWs, that is what is said.

The WatchTower is always and easy target for me since they do all the things we are taught not to do from the bible, such as perdict Christ return based on absolutes they have proven to be false the hard way several times for all the world to see. That is one blantant fact you cannot deny. Mistakes or not, they are shining example of what can happen when you trust man over God. I can't wait for a full descussion on this, since I have so much to say about it you will love it.

Lets move to revelations and your comments here.

You piggy back on your Daniel 12:1 comment concerning Micheal 'standing up' and Flip to Revelation 12:7

Again there is ambiguity as to the details. Who was the woman? Mary if so what what she doing in the heavens? Jesus was born in a manger. The 'Child' in this vision is Christ and he gets snatched up to God to his thrown (NIV). This could be speaking about Herods plot to kill Christ and Gods protection from this. There are alot of good guess's here.

What we do know is that Micheal is mensioned in the passage batteling Lucifer or Satan and Satan losing. We can agree on this. As for Jesus identity, again nothing is stated NOR implied. If Child going to be with God on his thrown then war breaking out is what you call a connection to Micheal. It is all you since no part of this scripture makes that leap. I did here only since I know what you teach and believe on it some what. However there is no identity transferral here, only a mension of the Authority and postion of Christ and the actions of an Arch Angel in submission to Christ and the Father.

revelations 19:14. I read this chapter to give it context. The rider is Christ not an Angel. I suppose this is not the conclusion you wanted? Again there is no connection between Micheal and Jesus as the same being. One is God and one is not and that is found in scripture verbatum see (NKJV) for passages below.

John 1:1 'was God'
Matthew 1:23 'God with us'
John 5 17,18, 14;9-11 20:28
Hebrews 1:8 9 (God the father calls Jesus God)
1Tim 3:16 (God manefiest in the flesh - Jesus).
Revelation 22:13 and 16 (Calls himself the Alpha and Omega, and says that he sent his Angel (pehaps this is your Micheal).
Titus 2:13 (our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ)

There is much more areas to discuss concerning the trinity and Jesus true nature that is revealed in scripture but that is good for now.


3. Jehovahs Memory. You mistake the question on this one I think. I wanted to know where in scripture Chapter and verse we find it explained as JWs explain it that Jehovah God will up load us via his memory data banks to recreate for us a new body and inject our memory into it. The bigger hurtle you will have to explain to me is how exactly is this a resussurection?

Since the JWs teach that our spirit is nothing more then a type of 'life force' that has on identitifing qualities to it of us. We then really are not us any longer just a compilation of memoeries we had that come from Jehovah. How can he bring back that which no longer exists namely us if all we are is flesh and bone. It is a mental pickle. In order for us to be ressurected the must be something to ressurect otherwise the ressurection is nothing more then replacement clones with our memory banks.

Furthermore I believe it is reasoning from the scriptures that defines Christs transferance from Micheal to Marys womb. Now the kicker is that since the JWs have tied the theological knot in ousting all posiblity of an immortal soul they are forced to break their own rule. They define that the Identifiy characteristic that Jesus is Micheal is the spirit, nephesh, or life breath if you prefer. This is after they have denied such a thing to be possible.

I have this info archived and can get it verbatum and will do my best to since you will demand it and rightly so.

4. Concerning Hell.  You brought up NIV Ecc 9:5 to validate your belief that no hell exists. However you must be refering NWT since I see no reference that renders this way. The meaning is clear that when we go to the grave our plans will end, we have no effect on the living and the memory of us will fade or be forgotten. We will be history in other words. You can check out Youngs Litteral translation
ASV
KJV
NKJV
NIV

They all say roughly the same thing.

As for the Hell topic.

here are some places it is mensioned:

Matt 11:23
Luke 10:15 16:23-24
2Peter 2:4
John 5:28 and 29
mark 9:44
Rev 9:5,11,10 14:10 and 11
Rev 20:
matt 3:12, 25:46
2Thess 1:9

Jesus clearly teaches that there is a Hell or a place of torment for those who deny him and seek to do evil. Now you snuck in a date and event concerning the Battel in heaven Rev 12:7 and said that this happened in 1914 then WW1 broke out.

Please Ben, Tell our readers if any what the really really big news was assocated with this well calculated prediction? You are a Scholar and that is who I am dealing with as you said. OK Scholar tell the rest of the story surrounding 1914. Other then the comming of Jehovahs Kingdom what immenent event was going to have transpired as a result of Jesus invisible presence returning and satan being thrown down to Earth. Correct me if I am 'mistaken' sir but was it not the End of the World?????? My question to you is this. How many excuses will you make for your precious org before you face the fact that they are a bad tree producing bad fruit. I want you to know Ben that God does love you, that you can be saved and have assurance that you are saved now. I want you to know that God loved you first, not after you joined some organizaion. I want you to know that he loves you for who you are not what you can do for him. He saved you because you cannot get it right, do it better, or satisfy any obligation. Jesus died on the Cross so you could be free from evil self regulating organizations like the Witnesses. John 3:5, Romans 4 are good passsages to start if you really what Christ to be your Lord and saviour. He is not what they have decieved you to believe Ben he is much much more. Yes i do know and no I cannot convince you by winning an argumnet with you. I like to argue, but I love my God. I am weak but he is strong praise God.

Till next time

Answer
"It has been denounced by Most if not all leading Greek Scholars"

So would you expect learned Greek scholar a Church going man who carries a King James version under his arm to be bias ,honest and subjective about a Jehovah's Witness translation.How would a renown GK scholar look going to Church with JW NWT.

On the other hand there are Greek and Hebrew scholars who are honest by a clear conscience and have supported our translation.


Hans-Jürgen Becker,Professor Emeritus bei University ät Regensburg
MacLean Gilmour  biblical scholar
Edgar J. Goodspeed Translator
Dr. Jason D. BeDuhn Master of Arts in Theological Studies from Harvard Divinity
Dr. Benjamin Kedar Professor of Jewish History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
Johannes Greber Catholic priest
Stephen T. Byington Translater
Lant Carpenter, LL.D in Unitarianism
Benjamin Wilson Diaglott
Vivian Capel 21st Century New Testament.
E.C. Colwell Greek and  biblical scholar, textual critic
S.G. Green biblical scholar
C.H. Dodd director of the New English Bible project,
W.E. Vine Translator
Herman Heinfetter Rules for Ascertaining the Sense Conveyed in Ancient Greek
C. Houtman Nederlands Theologisch Tijdschrift Dutch Theological
A. N. Jannaris  An Historical Greek Grammar
Robert M. McCoy Biblical translation
Archbishop William Newcome
A.M. Perry theologian), Journal of Biblical Literature
JD Phillips Church of Christ Minister
Charles Francis Potter Newton Theological Seminary
Joseph Priestley scientist and Unitarian theologian
Rijkel ten Kate classical Greek scholar
John Thompson The Monotessaron the Gospel History
Alexander Thomson Greek Hebrew The Differentiator
Paul Wernle , Professor Extraordinary of Modern Church History at the University of Basil
Thomas Winter Greek at the University of Nebraska
Allen Wikgren New Revised Standard Version committee
Robert Young LL.D.Concise Commentary
Frederick Danker Hebrew scholar
Andrews      Norton D.D Reasons For Not Believing the Doctrines of Trinitarians
A.M.Perry    theologian Journal of Biblical Literature




My list was not from the pages of the Watchtower.I dont believe these all walked around with NTW they just were honest and not swayed by personal doctrinal beliefs.


The average church person rejects our translation in favor of the churches of christendom KJV and will go to their death believing its the best but you know differently, simply because you are asking questions.








"I asked you to provide me with verbatum verses that say Jesus is the Arch Angel Micheal, did I not? Can you tell me what it means when someone asks you to recite something 'verbatum'? I know you are an educated man but let me help you with this one. It means word for word. This is why I didn't want your apostate Bible involved, that would be an easy out, and you didn't use it so thank you.

So what is proven from your responce for all to see is that there is not one passage where Jesus claims to be an Angel, implies that he is an Angel, nor any passage of the OT that states that Micheal would come to earth as a man named Jesus to saved the word of their sins. Furthermore you didn't find for me even one passage that states that Micheal is Gods one and only son, that he created the world, etc."




There is not one verse that says this is the trinity teaching but its believed,same here with the idenity of Michael.



"I am no scholar like you, however I do know he is an Arch Angel which is also a leadership role among them. Infact Daniel 10:13 (NIV) defines that he is one of 4 'Chief princes', most likely meaning 'arch angels"



So it sounds like you suggest that there are many Arch Angels not the Arch Angel and you reference  Daniel 10:13  as proof text,so lets examine it more close.



King James Version (KJV)

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help


So from this verse there are more than one Prince ,Prince is a general term for a ruler, monarch


Jesus is refered to as a Prince in scripture as well as Michael and at least one other angel the prince of the kingdom of Persia


(Daniel 10:20-21) . . .Do you really know why I have come to you? And now I shall go back to fight with the prince of Persia. When I am going forth, look! also the prince of Greece is coming. 21 However, I shall tell you the things noted down in the writing of truth, and there is no one holding strongly with me in these [things] but Mi´cha·el, the prince of YOU people.

King James Version (KJV)

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil


Here he is The Archangel no other archangels are mentioned in scripture but Michael, nor does the Bible use archangel in the plural.



As I mentioned before only two names are associated with authority over angels:


Michael and Jesus,proof text:


King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels
(Matthew 25:31) . . .and all the angels with him. . .
(Matthew 13:41) . . .The Son of man will send forth his angels,. . .
(2 Thessalonians 1:7) . . .the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels

King James Version (KJV)

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,



The name of Jesus is linked with the word Archangel:

King James Version (KJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel


So this passage clearly is reffering to the Archangel Michael,from this study we see there are no other passages or other Archangels as you claim ,he is reffered as the Archangel:

"Lord himself shall descend from heaven with the voice of the archangel"

not with the voice of one of the archangels.


(Jude 9) . . .But when Mi´cha·el the archangel . . .


Jesus is the one to resurrect the dead proof text:

(John 6:39) . . .I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day.
(John 6:40) . . .I will resurrect him at the last day. . .

What church people dont see is Jesus issues a commanding callto the dead to come forth, just as he did on while on earth ,this verse shows he does the same

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout"


The difference here is his call is not with a man’s voice as he did then, but with all the power of THE Archangel’s voice”

Common sense only THE Archangel can call with THE archangel’s voice,is raises many questiions,

1 How or why is Jesus voice the same as the Archangel Michaels  

2. What is Jesus doing leading ahead and depicted with Michaels angels  ,

3.Why is the Archangel Michael resurrecting when we read Jesus is  

4.Why is Jesus prophesied to crush Satan and we see Archangel Michael fighting Satan

5.Who is this angel A·bad´don and A·pol´lyon

6.Who is the Angel that seized the dragon hurling him into the abyss or bottomless pit

7.Why did Demon Princes call Jesus the Destroyer

The answers to these questions lead to only one possible conclusion ,THE Archangel Michael and Jesus are the same person.


That destroys the trinity teaching that Jesus is God,so lets answer these questions:


Why is Jesus voice the same as the Archangel Michaels:
       Scripture says so "with the voice of the archangel"


What is Jesus doing leading ahead and depicted with Michaels angels:
They are the same person,Jesus is depicted fighting with the angels as Michael seen.

Why is the Archangel Michael resurrecting when we read Jesus is:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Why is Jesus prophesied to crush Satan and we see Archangel Michael always fighting Satan:

The son of Gods name was not Jesus it was Michael he was given the name Jesus


Why did Demon Princes call Jesus the Destroyer:


King James Version (KJV)

34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us?



Michael is the destroyer :

(Revelation 20:1-2) . . .And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he seized the dragon,. . .

Why would it be any other angel but Michael with the final ending to the fight

Abaddon” is used as the name of “the angel of the abyss.” The corresponding Greek name Apollyon means “Destroyer

So we see Jesus is the destroyer and Michael has the key to the bottomless pit


Jesus has the same key:

King James Version (KJV)

31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep

        "the deep" is a poor translation


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

31 and he was calling on him, that he may not command them to go away to the abyss,



So Jesus has the power of the abyss,THE Archangel Michael has the power of the abyss:

(Revelation 20:3) 3 And he hurled him into the abyss . . .


No other conclusion can be drawn but they are one and the same.


Who is this angel A·bad´don and A·pol´lyon

Michael.


Who is the Angel that seized the dragon hurling him into the abyss or bottomless pit

No other than Michael the destroyer




King James Version (KJV)

34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us?






Thats all the time for this lesson I have


This is my 1st revision from earlier lesson


"The WatchTower is always and easy target for me since they do all the things we are taught not to do from the bible, such as perdict Christ return based on absolutes they have proven to be false the hard way several times for all the world to see. That is one blantant fact you cannot deny. Mistakes or not, they are shining example of what can happen when you trust man over God. I can't wait for a full descussion on this, since I have so much to say about it you will love it"




First of all the very first issue of Zions Watchtower made it crystal clear they dont have the gift of prophecy,the permission of the gifts of the spirit were done away notwithstanding they are still performed anyway in the churches of cgristendom,so our predictions were mere speculations not claming it was from God,so you still lose,try as hard as you want you will always lose.


We dont need to be inspired prophets to proclaim his already written word ,his words are inspired:

New International Version (NIV)

16 All Scripture is God-breathed


We dont proclaim new revelations we do predict dates and most have been proven correct,Jesus predicted 1914 and so did JWs 40 years before it happned:



(Revelation 12:9) . . .he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. .Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”


We say this was 1914 and Jesus confirmed it:


(Matthew 24:7) . . .For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. . .


He could have been pointing to World War II not World War I



Except for these facts:


We warned of 1914:


WT Jul 15 1894 P.266

the time of trouble


Zions WT Aug 1880

ending with the times of the Gentiles in 1914


Zions WT Nov 1880

A.D., 1914, and that it is the trouble of this 'Great day




New York newspaper called "The World"

August 1914,




According to the Calculations of Rev. Russell's "International Bible Students," This Is the "Time of Trouble" Spoken of by the Prophet Daniel, the Year 1914 Predicted in the Book "The Time Is at Hand," of Which Four Million Copies Have Been Sold, as the Date of the Downfall of the Kingdoms of Earth.

The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the "International Bible Students," best known as "Millennial Downers," have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914. "Look out for 1914!" has been the cry of the hundreds of traveling evangelists who, representing this strange creed







"Jehovahs Memory. You mistake the question on this one I think. I wanted to know where in scripture Chapter and verse we find it explained as JWs explain it that Jehovah God will up load us via his memory data banks to recreate for us a new body and inject our memory into it. The bigger hurtle you will have to explain to me is how exactly is this a resussurection? "



A persons memory is that person,if in the resurrection you dont know who you are or anyone else what sense would that make,the person has to be that exact same person

What makes an individual the person he is,IS IT HIS BODY ,cant be as the molecules in the body are regularly being replaced. . The resurrected person will have the same memory that he had acquired during his lifetime and he will have the full awareness of that memory. The person will be able to identify himself, and those who knew him will also be able to do so.Otherwise how would I even know my great great Grand dad unless my granfather tell me in the resurrection ,the way you sound no one will not know any of his family.Your beliefs and teachings are all twisted up.


(Psalm 139:16) 16 Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing. . .

Its logical to believe he is capable of having an accurate record by which to re-create one who has died since he has the blueprint of each person,Ford can make a model T if they want since they have the blue print,same concept.



We cant limit Jehovah power,he tells us just how great his memory is:

(Psalm 147:4) . . .He is counting the number of the stars; All of them he calls by [their] names. . .

(Isaiah 40:26) . . .Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing.

King James Version (KJV)

26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.




We cant begin to know the number of stars yet he  has names for each one,so he can make an exact person who died be the very same person,I really dont understand your point.




















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