Jehovah`s Witness/Jehovah's Memory

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QUESTION: Ben,
Ok tough guy this should be a cake walk for you. I get JWs come to my house from time to time. They spit out their sales pitch or what they can get out of it and I tell them I am a Christian. Do they stop there and peacefully leave? No, now it is a venue to argue with me. Whats funny is that I actually came on to this site peacefully looking for JW answers to some questions I had, however with your, 'Spiritual slayer' statement being what it is I have to poke the mouse just a little.  

Lets first start with what you know or should know,(I will be brief this time as I have little time to get involved with any kind of meaningful commentary).

1. What passage and verse in the word of God (Not a NWT reference but a aproved version of scripture) directly says verbatum,

a. When we die we 'remain' in Jehovahs memory?
b. That Jesus is the Arch Angel Micheal?
c. There is no Hell.
d. The soul of the man is the same as his flesh
e. Where Jesus became the Arch Angel Micheal and how this occured.
f. Where we learn Jesus second advent would be 'invisible'
g. Where in the NT the Tetragrammation is found from the earliest
Manuscripts.
h. Where scripture states that Memorial would be done only once a year, and only the 144. 000 can partake.
i. Why Revelations has the 'great clowd of witnessess' in heaven around Gods thrown.
j. Where scripture states that being born again only applies to the John Class.
k, Where in scripture we can find the 'john class'.
l. What passage of scripture teaches that Jehovah 'creates other Gods'. Explain to me from scripture why Jehovah explicitly says over and over that he didn't do this?
m. Provide me with all four passages from the Old Test were Jehovah God calls himself 'us', and 'our'.
n. Why is Jesus called by Jehovah the 'Mighty God'? 'Why is Jehovah known by that very same name'?
o. What is the Name of the Holy Spirt? Matthew 28:18-20. And are you baptized in the name of a non-person, or active force?
p. Where in scripture does Jehovah call the Holy Spirit his active force? Why are personality attributes given to this force. Why is he called 'he', and 'concilor' 'etc'.
q. Why does Jesus refer to himself as 'Alpha and Omega' beginning and End. In Reve 1:8?

My fifteen minutues or so are up. Like I said easy breasy. Lets see how you do hot shot.




I was going to leave it at three but I had a little more on my mind.
c.

ANSWER: Its definitely a going to be a cake walk,you lose already from this statement:

"Not a NWT reference but a aproved version of scripture"

Jehovah's Witnesses NWT IS RANKED BEST OF 52 TRANSLATIONS,capitalization so you dont miss this.

In his book:

"What Is The Best New Testament" University of Chicage Press, 1951.

Jehovahs Witnesses English Translation
The New World Translation scored Best 64 pts

Where did The King James Version rank with Colwell?

Dead last 0 out of 64

Translation Agrees with the Critical Text

Agrees with the later Textus Receptus Other

New World Translation 64 0 0
21st Century NT* 64 0 0
Goodspeed* 64 0 0
Rotherham 62 2 0
Byington/BLE 61 3 0
New Revised Standard 60 3 1
20th Century NT 59 4 1
Lattimore 59 5 0
New American Standard 59 5 0
Westminster 58 6 0
American Standard Ver. 58 6 0
Revised Version 1885 57 7 0
Beck's An American Trans 56 8 0
New Jerusalem Bible 56 8 0
Revised Standard Version 56 8 0
New American Bible 56 7 1
Moffatt 56 7 1
New Berkeley Version 56 7 1
Riverside New Testament 55 9 0
Barclay's New Testament 55 8 1
Kleist & Lilly New Test. 55 9 0
Wuest's Expanded Trans. 54 10 0
New English Bible 53 9 2
Holman Christian Standard 53 11 0
God's Word Translation 53 11 0
Weymouth's New Test. 53 11 0
Williams New Testament 52 12 0
English Standard Version 52 10 2
Spencer 51 13 0
New International Version 51 10 3
Basic English Bible 51 12 1
New Century Version 51 12 1
International Standard Ver 50 14 0
Ferrar Fenton 50 14 0
Good News Bible 50 12 2
Jerusalem Bible 49 15 0
Recovery NT 49 15 0
NET Bible 49 13 2
Jewish NT 49 13 2
The Message 48 13 3
Centenary Version 47 16 1
Contemporary English Ver 46 15 3
JB Phillips 45 17 2
Living Bible 42 15 7
New Living Translation 41 19 4
Amplified Bible 37 27 0
Confraternity Version 35 27 2
Concordant Literal NT 25 28 1
Knox Version 33 29 2
Challoner 25 27 2
Hebrew Names Version 8 55 1
New King James Version 0 63 1
Revised Webster 0 64 0
King James Version 0 64 0



So talk what you know,you are up against a bible scholar.




"When we die we 'remain' in Jehovahs memory"


John 5:28
King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice


You would have to be remembered by God for him to call you,Job said:

Job 14- (King James
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!




"That Jesus is the Arch Angel Micheal?"


There are many reasons but for the sake of time and the fact you have many other questions Ill just cut through the chase and get right to the point.



(Daniel 12:1) . . .And during that time Mi´cha·el will stand up. . .

When you examin the context of standing up in this book youll find it has reference to a King and frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king:


(Daniel 11:1) . . .And as for me, in the first year of Da·ri´us the Mede I stood up . . .

(Daniel 11:2) . . .Look! There will yet be three kings standing up for Persia. . .

(Daniel 11:3) . . .“And a mighty king will certainly stand up . . .

(Daniel 11:5) . . .And the king of the south will become strong. . .

(Daniel 11:7) 7 And one from the sprout of her roots will certainly stand up . . .

(Daniel 12:1) . .“And during that time Mi´cha·el will stand up.


We see every other reference with standing up was of a King

Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.

We say he stood up as King in 1914 and world distress and World War I

(Revelation 12:7) . . .And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled . . .


This was 1914 and Jesus removed all opposers of his Kingdom as Satan was ousted.


(Daniel 12:1) . . .And during that time Mi´cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.. . .



Later we read this:

(Revelation 19:11) . . .And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True,. . .

This is Jesus,we say its Michael who is Jesus



We just read this:

"And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled"


Then we read:
(Revelation 19:14) . . .Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses. . .



You smart enough to put it together yet,what is Jesus doing with Michaels angels



Mi´cha·el and his angels battled"
the armies that were in heaven were following him


We just read Jesus is to fight the nations he was the one who with his angels earlier battled against the superhuman dragon, Satan the Devil, and his angels.




"There is no Hell"

If there is such a horrible place as taught by the Churches in America and the world why was the first man not even warned of its existance,surely he is there in a special place in the flames of hell,just two problems,he was not warned and God has always warned of coming trouble by his prophets and this would be the most trouble anyone could ever be in burning alive forever,the other problem is Adam dont know he burning:


(Ecclesiastes 9:5) . . .For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all. . .



False teaching.


This is all the time I have ,later Ill revise my respose to include the others,if you still will be around ,I doupt it after your doctrine has been exposed as false,and you know the penalty for false teachings is DEATH for the teacher and any who follow.


Prophet Grünbaum




I said I would address the rest of your questions,You never followed up so I assume you are gone,dont matter I was not responding for you anyway.



I will put the NWT up against any you or anyone else and see which is the most accurate in Hebrew and Greek

In most translations from the churches of christendom this text is rendered


, 1 John 2:1

King James Version)
1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

English Standard
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin,(A) we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

American Standard Version)
1 John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

Young's Literal Translation)
1 John 2
1My little children, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin: and if any one may sin, an advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one,

In the same context later{


King James Version
1 John 3:6:
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not
Young's Literal Translation)
6every one who is remaining in him doth not sin; every one who is sinning, hath not seen him, nor known him.
The problem is clearly Verb tenses If no follower of Jesus sins,]Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not] how does 1 John 2:1 apply since it says: ]writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin]

Makes no sense,the correct translation in GK from the NWT , :



(1 John 2:1) . . ., I am writing YOU these things that YOU may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one..
. .
John used the aorist tense in this verse, indicating the committing of an isolated sin, the kind of thing all of us do from time to time because we are imperfect.

NWT
(1 John 3:6) . . .Everyone remaining in union with him does not practice sin;.
. .
"Not Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not"

Thats why KJV IS LAST where it should be.



Another verse that lack meaning and leads to a false conclusion is:

John 20 (King James Version)
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father

American Standard
Touch me not;

Jesus could not have told Mary not to touch him because later he told Thomas to touch him and he still had not yet ascended


The problem seems small to some and just either overlook small details like this or are just plain ignorant,the NWT and several others agree with our rendering as:
(John 20:17) . . .Stop clinging to me. . .

English Standard Version)
"Do not cling to me,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Don't cling to Me

The question anyone reading this should be is how many other verses in the realm of the translators of the churches of christendom that the readers get the wrong conclusion,it may seem small to you but not to me,I want to know excactly what was said with accuracy,church people dont care but we do.



I only have time for one more of your questions:


"Where we learn Jesus second advent would be 'invisible"


(Acts 1:9-11) 9 And after he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, 11 and they said: “Men of Gal´i·lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.”



Like you when I was a minister in Christendom I taught Jesus was coming on clouds ,that was what I learned ,I believed it and taught it,why would I question it.

The witnesses however dont accept it and brought up interesting points the vast marjorty of Church people wont ever come to understand.



The word cloud itself was the key,in whatever way it was used throughout scripture in the past it would be reasonable it would continue to be conveyed the same way.


So how was a cloud used :


To denote invisibility:


Scripture says this in Exodus:


(Exodus 13:21) . . .And Jehovah was going ahead of them in the daytime . . .


How was God going ahead of Israel:

(Exodus 13:21) . . .in a pillar of cloud . . .



Now as Scholars we have to be consistant,so if Jesus is coming on a cloud literally then God was seen on this cloud literally.


But he was not,you cant see God ,he told Moses that,so the only reasonable explanation is the cloud was his invisible presence.


At Mount Sinai, at the time of giving the Law to Israel, a dark cloud covered the mountain;


In past cases clouds represented invisible presence; but observers could “see” the meaning




So in 1914 he came on clouds into his kingdom in heaven it was not seen but the effects were strong as a mighty battle took place in heaven and later on earth World War I



(Revelation 12:7-9) . . .And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.







Prophet Grünbaum










---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Ben,

I said I would not follow up on anything until you explained the meaning of your last statements in the first post. This is what you said.

This is all the time I have ,later Ill revise my respose to include the others,if you still will be around ,I doupt it after your doctrine has been exposed as false,and you know the penalty for false teachings is DEATH for the teacher and any who follow.


Prophet Grünbaum


Was this intended to be a death threat? I can easily deal with the WatchTowers verson of what they call 'truth' and put a pin in your inflated ego while I do it. In other words a little sparring match is fine so long as the other player is simply decieved but of a sound mind. If you are unballanced enough to make death threats you should be seeking professional help. I am not interested in arguing with someone who is mentally ill. If you can explain to me the meaning of the Above statement, in that you were not making a 'death threat' nor was this your intension. I would be happly to pop your inflated ego and put you in your rightful place on all matters discussed.  I wrote you a similar message like this and moved on since I had no responce from you. I also wrote emailed a customer service rep on this site to check into your statement. Nothing has been recieved yet.

If you are not mentally ill, please note I will not tollerate 'Death threats' I don't care who you think you are Prophet or not. If you are mentally sick then we really have nothing further to discuss. It seems unfair to me to aggravate those who are struggling with demons/illness internally. If this is the case then please accept my appologies and get so help.

For those who are reading this post if it goes up. I have not given up any battle in regard to the JWs, I however am concerned about the mental state of a man who calls himself a Prophet (i have never heard a JW do this) and I personally know many of them. I also have never my life threatened directly or indirectly by one. As you can see his statement I copied clearly stated that he 'doubted' I would 'alive' to respond to his first responce since 'Death' as 'as we both know' since 'DEATH' comes to false teachers and their followers. In his mind I am the one teaching falsely.

To all reading if any, I need to hear Ben need to know I am not dealing with a mentally sick individual before I continue. Please deal with your statement first then I will be happy to address all your 'answers', until then we have nothing more to discuss. Since you didn't answer me 3 days ago when I wrote you this I will copy it and send it to you personally rather then 'follow up question' portion of the post. If I get no responce to either then I know you are avoiding me and this question. I will move on.

Answer
Dont try to tactic of deflecting my response to make it personal,I said nothing about a time frame of your death.I said:


"This is all the time I have ,later Ill revise my response to include the others,if you still will be around ,I doubt it after your doctrine has been exposed as false,and you know the penalty for false teachings is DEATH for the teacher and any who follow"



When I said "if you still will be around" I meant as a reader to this site,I say that because you yourself said:


I actually came on to this site peacefully looking for JW answers




So you could as easily not come back as a reader as many do.




So I wanted to address a so-called imminent death threat,but the statement still stands what I said:


"the penalty for false teachings is DEATH for the teacher and any who follow"




Now before I continue with the rest you need to refute what Ive written thus far,for example,I said:


Jehovahs Witnesses English Translation
The New World Translation scored Best 64 pts
King James was last 0-64


You prove me wrong.


Another example:

Mi´cha·el standing up meant being a King in scripture,you come back and show thats false it doesn't mean that and provide scriptural proof text.



So go over all my responses thus far and squast my teaching with scriptual text.



Yet another one concerning hell fire,I said if Adam is burning in hell he is not aware he is burning and I provided scripture proof in death one is not aware of anything,you need to show from scripture that this scripture is a lie:

Ecclesiastes 9:5) . . .For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all. . .





Prophet Grünbaum  

Jehovah`s Witness

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