Jehovah`s Witness/Man's destination

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Question
QUESTION: Hello. No, I wasnt asking about Israel. Maybe you were tired and didnt notice the link that includes Mr Brenton's answer to my question.

http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=1617&expID=62166&qID=5043886

You dont need to reply to every sentence. Im asking about your interpretation on mans destination. Was he created to live on Earth or Heavens and which of the two is his destination? As you, JW's interpretation is that some go to Heaven, some on Earth.

Then will man be resurrected in a fleshy or spiritual body?


Thanks.

ANSWER: Hello, Christaras.  I am finally getting a chance to sit down and read the entire lengthy response from Mr. Hepburn, that you are wanting my take on.  I apologize for this, but once again, I have had a number of long questions this week (some that needed attention because they were slanderous towards my family), in addition to computer problems, and also things off of the board that I have had to tend to.  It has been a tough week.

You wrote:  “Hello. No, I wasnt asking about Israel. Maybe you were tired and didnt notice the link that includes Mr Brenton's answer to my question.

http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=1617&expID=62166&qID=5043886


REPLY:  Actually, I was tired and did not copy and paste the link, and I made a mistake about which answer you were referring to.  My apologies on that.  I actually just went to Brenton’s previous answers, and thought you were asking about Israel.  

Here is what I saw in your last writing, where you said…

“Hello. Mr Brenton gave me a very a good answer on the "fleshy/spiritual" and "earthly/heavenly destination" subject. It will be very interesting to test and compare both views, if you have a different one on the subject.

http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=1617&expID=62166&qID=5043886”


As I said, I didn’t copy and paste the link, but I simply saw your reference to “fleshly/spiritual”, and thought you were referring to Mr. Hepburn’s answer entitled “SPIRITUAL ISRAEL VS. NATIONAL ISRAEL”.  So, that is why my comments dealt with that subject.  Again, I was the one confused as to which answer you were asking about.

That being said, the Bible clearly teaches a number of things:

1.  God created the earth, and created man perfect, to live on a perfect earth.  

2.  JWs claim that God’s purpose for the earth has not changed.  That is only partly true…there HAVE been changes to the original plan.  It was not God’s original plan that man sin, that man get sick, that man’s fellowship from Him be broken, that the earth become what it has, and that man should ever die.  None of those things were in God’s plan.  However, the Bible also teaches that the earth will abide forever, and will be inhabited.

3.  The term in 1 Corinthians 15, “flesh and blood”, is an idiomatic expression speaking of sinful humanity and corruption.  It does not deny that our resurrection will be physical….it merely shows that our glorified PHYSICAL body will not be “corruptible”, or under the curse of sin.  Adam’s original body was physical, as will our resurrected bodies.  There is no question that Jesus’ resurrection was in a physical body, because Jesus Himself taught that this would be the case (John 2:19-21).  He clearly denied being a “spirit” (Luke 24:36-39).  The angel at the tomb testified that His body was not there, BECAUSE He was risen (Matthew 28:5-6).

However, our resurrected physical bodies will be perfect, without sin, and will not decay, break down, or die.  The curse of sin will be removed.  The Bible does NOT say that these glorfied bodies will require blood….Jesus’ resurrected body was flesh and bones.


4.  As for the believer’s destiny, there is no contradiction at all between a heavenly hope, and an earthly hope, as the Jehovah’s Witnesses would have us imagine.  As a saved Christian, I would go in spirit to be with Christ in Heaven, if I were to die today.  However, I would also live in the new heavens and the new earth, once that time comes.  

Isaiah 65:17-  “ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”

Notice the words “I create”, and “the former”, showing that the new heavens and new earth will be different than what exists now.


Isaiah 66:22-  “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.”

Once again, a future creation.


2 Peter 3:13-  “ Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

This chapter CLEARLY outlines a destruction of the present earth, and a completely new one, either by renovation or by re-creation.  So yes, there is going to be a new earth, where all of God’s saints will dwell.


This all brings us to Revelation 21, where we read about this in great detail, and we find that the division that exists between heaven and earth now, will not exist in eternity.  The new heaven will come down from God, and God will dwell there among His people.  

Rev. 21:1-2-  “ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”


And I encourage you to read the entire chapter, for proof that God will dwell here among His people.

No, there are NO divisions between one “class” of Christians, and another “class” of Christians.  Such does not exist.

In 1 Corinthians 15, we are given great detail as to the nature of our resurrected body.  There is NOTHING there that indicates it won’t be physical…just that it won’t be corruptible flesh.  The analogy of a seed being planted, is given.  I am a gardener.  And I can tell you that, when I plant a PHYSICAL bean seed, I ALWAYS get a PHYSICAL bean plant.  I have never once planted corn, and gotten a non-physical, “spirit” corn plant.  The resurrected body is different, it is better, but it is physical and glorified flesh.

I basically agree with much of what you said in your question to Brenton….There are not 2 classes of Christian.  The destiny for ALL Christians who die in Christ, is heaven (John 12:26, 2 Corinthians 5:1-8, Philippians 1:20-23).  Until which time the new heavens and the new earth arrive, and all Christians will dwell there at that time.  In addition, those who are currently in Heaven now in spirit, will return WITH Christ at the rapture, and receive the resurrection of their bodies.  We see this in 1 Thess. 4:14.…

“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

Notice that they will be coming WITH Him at His return.  This is not possible, unless they are with Him where He is, before He returns.


Now, on to the resurrection of their bodies….

v. 16-17-  “ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
Notice that those who are WITH Him at His return in spirit, will RISE (their bodies) at that exact moment.  So, their spirits will be reunited with their bodies, and their bodies are OBVIOUSLY no longer a corruptible body, because it says they “shall ever be WITH the Lord”.

Now I ask you, how can the JW interpretation that “flesh and blood” can’t GO to Heaven be correct, when this passage clearly shows that the risen BODIES DO go to Heaven, to be with Christ?  So, the JW interpretation has a serious problem.


Finally, we are told….”Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

Notice that these words on the resurrection and state of the dead, are SUPPOSED to provide COMFORT to those left here on earth after their loved one dies.  Now Christaras, I am going to give you the Christian view, and the JW view.  And you tell me WHICH view provides “comfort”……

CHRISTIAN VIEW:  Your loved one who died in Christ Jesus, is now in His presence just as the Apostle Paul talked about, being absent from the body, but being present with the Lord.  They are in Heaven now, and at the coming of Christ for his Church, they will receive a brand new glorified body, which will never have a pain, a disease such as cancer, and will never grow old or die.


JW VIEW:  Your loved one does not exist anywhere.  When their bodies died, they went into a state of non-existence.  They are NOT with Christ.  They are nowhere, except possibly in Jehovah’s memory.  One day, IF Jehovah remembers them and decides that they are worthy, they MAY be resurrected to life.  At least, they may be resurrected and given a CHANCE to accept the message of the Watchtower Society.  If they accept this message, they MAY be granted everlasting life, provided they pass some “tests” first.  If they reject, they will be obliterated.  Of course, only Rando and DW know for sure if that person still has any hope or not, and you had better pray that those guys weren’t angry with your loved one, or all hope is lost.

Think about it….


 













---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: No, it doesnt matter. I understand cause Im also through trouble.

Thanks, I'll go through this and see if I have any other question. One of the first things that draw my attention is your view that "flesh and blood" is symbolic for corruptible flesh. How do you arrive at this conclusion?

Finally, the last part was quite funny. Indeed, if Jehovah made Rando a judge then I dont think Rando would leave anyone alive. If someone dares to doubt and make a question to  priest and king Rando during the 1000 years, he will be sent to Gehenna for daring to doubt.

Now, I want to say I like the situations where Jesus and saints say to demons "Go to the utmost darkness prepared for the Devil and his demons, get lost murderers of the human race", but doesnt Rando realizes that he is not dealing with demons but weak people who try to approach Christ? Would he tell to a weak old lady that she is going to be slaughtered like a pig in Gehenna if she doesnt become a JW?

Thanks

Answer
Yes, just go through it and compare it with the Scriptures.  Opinions are not what is important...only the Bible.  

As for your question about the phrase "flesh and blood", I arrive at this because the phrase is only used 4 other times in the Scripture (besides in 1 Cor 15), and it carries that meaning there too.  It is obvious by the context, as it is normally contrasting humans with God, who is perfect.  In one instance, it contrasts humans with spirit beings.  In the final instance, it illustrates Christ becoming human, like one of us.  But in every case, it presents a contrast between the earthly beings (humans) and the heavenly.  


Matthew 16:17-  "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."


Galatians 1:15-16-  " But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,  

To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:"


Ephesians 6:12-  "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]."


Heb. 2:14-  "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"


YOU:  "Finally, the last part was quite funny. Indeed, if Jehovah made Rando a judge then I dont think Rando would leave anyone alive. If someone dares to doubt and make a question to  priest and king Rando during the 1000 years, he will be sent to Gehenna for daring to doubt.

Now, I want to say I like the situations where Jesus and saints say to demons "Go to the utmost darkness prepared for the Devil and his demons, get lost murderers of the human race", but doesnt Rando realizes that he is not dealing with demons but weak people who try to approach Christ? Would he tell to a weak old lady that she is going to be slaughtered like a pig in Gehenna if she doesnt become a JW?"


REPLY:  Yes, he certainly WOULD say that to a weak, elderly lady.  Without blinking an eye.  Rando would say that to anyone who would dare to question his infinite knowledge and wisdom.  Which, by the way, only shows how insecure he is.  He wants you to just "Believe me, or ELSE!!"

Take care.  Still having computer issues, so my replies are short, because I don't want to lost all I type due to the computer shutting down.  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

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29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

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I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

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High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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